Concerning the Proposed Deal with the Abyssal Lords of Fire & Ice

People of Travance,

By now, most of you have heard of the proposition between Travance and the Abyssal Lords of Fire and Ice, known as Mother and the Jailor, to work together in some fashion to deal with the Abyssal Lord of Earth. You can read here on these boards the argument for us to sign it from the Fire Legionnaire called Q’aare’zel, a.k.a. Karl. We do not yet have the text of this proposed contract, but we must be of one mind before the start of the December Feast.

We, the Grand Council of Travance, have not made a decision one way or the other. I will be frank: none on the Grand Council have spoken in favor of signing this pact, for we believe nothing good can come of dealing with demons. However, we are not the only people who call this barony home. Your opinions matter.

Tell us, Travance. Tell us what you would see happen.

Regardless of your choice, there are some immutable truths about this situation:
•We must close the portal to the Abyss opened by the Earth Lord Kalen Maitel.
•We must not kill his remaining legionnaires, or else the power he regains will cause him to become too difficult to fight.
•There must be an Earth Lord, or the resulting planar instability will ripple out to our own plane.
•We are going to be fighting LOTS of demons.
•Should you choose to work with Mother and the Jailor, we will have fewer demons to fight, but we do not know what the price will be.
•If we do not sign, we will be trying to close the portal on our own, and very likely fighting Kalen on our own.

We are not without plans for dealing with Kalen & his portal on our own, so saying no will not suddenly leave us scrambling next Feast, but the plans will definitely be more difficult to pull off without the assistance of Mother & the Jailor.

So please, Travance, let us see your arguments for or against signing this contract. All may speak freely here, without fear of retribution from the nobility or any kind of criminal charges vis a vis dealing with dark forces, with one exception: if anyone decides that this posting is the place to indulge in petty insults and squabbles, I will be removing those posts. State your views, argue your points, ask questions, and please, be respectful.

In Service to Travance,

I do not speak for Ostcliff, or Heargen, or anyone other than myself right now.

I do not have the fancy words or ability to write longwinded essays about why I think something or why I think I'm right but the only thought I have is that this entire idea is insanity. Considering making deals with demons and devils... An act that many would be punished or condemned for doing.

It spits in the face of every single person we lost in the demon wars. It spits in the face of my brother.

We have master scholars, masters of gates and portals, and masters of... so many other things who are likely able to do something as we research more. Making a deal with a demon is always considered the Easy way. I don't believe travance to be foolish enough to take the easy way at the cost of their souls.

With honor,
Burkhart Jarlson

Be they demon lords, gods, nobles, anthropomorphic personifications of good and evil, dragons from the dawn of time, businesspersons of good or ill repute, or that one shady guy in Coast Haven named Earl, I'm willing to sit at the table and talk it out with anyone, if they're willing to share their terms in some manner.*

Anyone who can't be bothered to even offer something to hint at their terms is offering a suckers deal. The only way you benefit from that is by making the other one the sucker. If you sit at the table, make sure you know and they know, we don't need them, they need us. Give them a list of demands to accomplish, and then they can help it's their fault for not setting terms.

Otherwise, walk away.

*(Okay I do have one exception to the make a deal without terms being offered but one should always have at least one exception. Can't be too rigid.)

Considered how Mother has caused Travance to be attacked before, not interested.

Besides, next feast is Reclamation, the celebration of the defeat of Xualla.

It'll be difficult, but we have the initiative to get rid of this problem on our own as long as we work together on gathering the resources to stop it before it gets out of hand.

-Squire Ilana Darkwood

If I remember right, the last time Mr. Karl told us that he was helping us, he was tricking us. I think I've heard an expression here in Kormyre once that went..."Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I definitely don't want to make deals with him or Mother or anyone named "The Jailor." We don't need their help. We're Travance!

Besides, just because we don't work with the demons doesn't mean we'll be facing it alone. This concerns the fairy courts as well, and I've already sent a letter to my friend, Miss Princess Pyke. She hasn't answered yet, so I don't know for sure if the fairies can help, but I very much hope so.

-Midori Suarez
Daughter of Mercy

I cannot seem to find this Q'aare'zel's written proposal on this board, if one of you could perhaps scribe a copy of it I would be most appreciative.
Without a written copy of the contract or any compelling argument from Karl, I see no reason not to evacuate and fight every damn daemon or devil headed our way. This town is filled with men, women and even children who could singlehandedly combat an earthen fiend that would take ten normal folk to fight.

HOWEVER,

It is worth noting that Arawyn as a whole contains far more ordinary folk than extraordinary. Though we are capable of dealing with the largest amount of daemons and devils available, Xualla and Balfurous should serve as a reminder that we have a duty to at least consider how our choices impact the people who can't save the world like we can.

Considering that, I still believe that we should avoid signing with the Jailor or Mother, unless we can confirm that the contract written by them is less costly for everyone involved than just fighting them all letting the Twelve sort them out.

I am relatively new to town so I don't know all the history yet but I would not make a blind deal with a merchant who I worked with all the time. An extra-planar being we are already calling a demon would get the consideration I would give rotten fruit. Are there other allies that we can ask for aid? Maybe beings that we are calling angels?

Berek

Some clarifications on extra-planar beings for the layfolk:

What we are "dealing" with--and I lament the pun--are DEMONS.

Demons are creatures that inhabit and manifest within the Abyss, a collection of planes closely related to the force of Chaos. Demons are inherently Chaotic, and born of negative energy, our direct antithesis. They typically have a close relation of one element, depending on which Plane of the Abyss they hail from. Our opponent here is Kalen Maitel, current reigning Abyssal Lord of Earth. His minions were born in the Abyssal Plane of Earth, as was his predecessor Erkod the Jagged King. The forces claiming to be our allies were born in the Abyssal Planes of Ice (of which The Jailor reigns Lord) and Fire (of which Mother reigns Lord, with Q'aare'zl as one of her Legionnaires.)

The stability of the Abyssal Realms hinges on the presence of an Abyssal Lord, incredibly powerful elemental demons, sitting upon the Abyssal Thrones in each elemental abyss. Kalen Maitel has abandoned the Abyssal Throne of Earth, which has wreaked instability that will see the Abyss pouring into our Prime Material plane until there is nothing left of what we once knew and loved about Arawyn.

Demons are distinct from other extra-planar creatures, which include (but are hardly not limited to):

ASTRAL CREATURES - All manner of extra-planar beings belonging to the Astral plane. This includes dragons, fey, anastazi, gods, celestials... many things.
CELESTIALS - A larger class, consisting of all manner of Ascended mortal. They are inherently aligned with Order, directly antithetical to Demonic existence. These include:

ANGELS - Ascended mortals inhabiting the planes, and bound in service of the Light Gods. They are inherent aligned with Order and Good.

GARGOYLES - Ascended mortals inhabiting the planes, and bound in service of the Neutral Gods. They are inherently aligned with Order.

DEVILS - Ascended mortals inhabiting the planes, and bound in service of the Dark Gods. Theyare inherently aligned with Order and Evil.

ELEMENTALS - Extra-planar beings inhabiting the elemental planes, they are not corrupted by chaos, unlike Demons.

Also of interest:
FAERIES - Once thought to be of extra-planar origin by Kormyrian scholars, we now know my people the Faeries inhabit secret realms hidden throughout the plane of Arawyn, the Prime Material Plane, himself. Kalen Maitel, the current Abyssal Lord of Earth, was born the son of His Majesty Avalon Maitel the Stone King, Sovereign of the Earth Court of Faeries. According to Q'aare'zl's account (which we should not heed closely) Kalen became corrupted after slaying Erkod the Jagged King, at Avalon's order. Avalon corroborates this story, but does not know whether this being claiming to be Kalen is truly his son.

AVALON'S WISHES - If this truly is Kalen Maitel, Prince of the Stone Court of Faeries, then it is his Majesty's wish that his son is to be purified. If it is a Demon masquerading as his son, then it is to be outright destroyed.

People are working.

I hope this clarifies things. If you have any questions, please post further missives.

--Mantel Warrane
Professor of Weave Studies at the Darkwood Academy for the Metaphysical Arts

An Addendum:

It is a common misconception among layfolk and scholars alike to make the assumption that Demons are inherently Evil.

This is not necessarily the case.

This also does not mean that one should dispense of care when interacting with Demons. They are our existential antithesis. We are born of positive energy, and they of negative. We must treat them always with an abundance of caution and skepticism.

--Mantel Warrane

No demon will have my allegiance, whether Travance agrees upon it or otherwise. Too much blood was spilled in the Demon Wars to accept a proposal with fiends who have already turned the trust of the citizenry here to their advantage at least once.

Do not bow, friends.

-Ferrian

Upon the Feast of the Reclamation, I will kneel to the Kingdom and no other, for in this Age of Heroes, we set risk above political expediency.


~Nalick Underhill

I WILL NOT deal with demons. The only good demon is a dead one at the end of my blade. I will not work with them. We can find another way to deal with the threat than by making deals with creatures like that.

~Khala

Based on this information the problem seems to be finding a replacement for the abyssal lord of Earth. Kalen Maitel does not want to rule that plane which he inherited through combat so maybe what we need to do it help someone who wants to be an abyssal lord inherit it from him. The new lord could go home and close the gate behind him. If there has to be an abyssal lord at least lets find one that has ties to our plane.

I am not sure what kind of person or being would want the job but it seems better to help a new one than defeating and imprisoning the old one.

Berek

This does remind me of the moral standoff between many of those in town who practice arts of Light and Dark when we were amidst the Null situation; no ground to be made on either side, merely an opportunity for opinions to be tossed about. Hopefully, in this open forum, things will turn out to be productive.

Though they be of Chaos, and misdeeds be their game, the Demons of Ice and Fire have just as much to lose as we do. Those who know me know I am aligned to Light powers, and that I folly not in the Dark, Evil, nor Chaotic arts. I am in no way partial to working with these beings. But if there is some way in which we could ally with the Demons of Ice and Fire without getting the short end of the stick, I would be interested. To choose the difficult path, thus taking longer to handle the situation, as well as perhaps losing any semblance of treaty between those "allied" Demons and ourselves, is to guarantee the deaths of many.

I am not saying to walk blindly into agreement. I merely request we view the contract cautiously and proceed only if we can guarantee our safety and the safety of the innocent lives we would be signing away. To turn away good help would be foolish at best, and at worst, we could cease to exist. I see nothing wrong with considering the contract before deciding to sign it or not, lest you desire to live in contempt of what could have been, should things go sour.

In the name of Life,

~Ergos

Berek,

I would have to directly disagree, we want the opposite of a being with ties to our plane. Ties to Arawyn are what have drawn Kalen away from his seat upon the Abyssal Throne of Earth.

--MW

P.S. Goodness sakes, Ergos, you're learning quickly.

So the idea of replacing the abyssal lord of earth is on the table but we need to discuss who? Do we have access to being from other planes?

Berek

Mantel-

With your update on how the Earth King feels about this, please come see me at your convenience to discuss how to purify the Prince. Keeping in mind that this might also be a way to transfer the Lord of Earth’s powers to someone/something else as well...

I will be in my office.

Honorably,

Mae Fang

*A few portions are underlined*

Ergos wrote: But if there is some way in which we could ally with the Demons of Ice and Fire without getting the short end of the stick, I would be interested. To choose the difficult path, thus taking longer to handle the situation, as well as perhaps losing any semblance of treaty between those "allied" Demons and ourselves, is to guarantee the deaths of many.

I merely request we view the contract cautiously and proceed only if we can guarantee our safety and the safety of the innocent lives we would be signing away.

-We will be getting the short end of the stick.
- 'Treaty' is probably the wrong word to be using. Though, Mother may 'renew' her 'will not harass Travance' for another year. However, she can't keep all her demons away anyways.
-Looking at the contract is important, signing or not, in my opinion.

There is an old Kormyrian fable that I remember from when I was young, that of the frog and the scorpion:

A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

Demons cannot be trusted. Even if it is in their best interests to assist us, they will betray us. As beings of chaos, it is their very nature. Unlike mortals, they lack the free will or desire to change.

As Burkhart said, the easy path is rarely the one worth taking. I for one will not give in to that temptation.

Mr. Winstonshire,

This is a copy of Q'aare'zel's note: ((OOG: It's the epilogue for the November event, so you can find it on the main KR home page))
Dear Magnificent and Terrifying Mortals of Travance,
I, your humble and pathetic imp friend, have done some research in the Abyss on your behalf. I wouldn’t want you mortals to waste your vast and great intellect when such a wretch as me could do this for you. I want to regale you mortals with the tale of Kalen Maitel, but first I must tell you of the original Abyssal Lord of Earth - Erkod the Jagged King. Please, I know my writing is terrible and undeserving of your sight, but please keep reading. Erkod was not satisfied with the Earth Throne’s power and sought to attain more. Avalon Maitel, the lesser faerie king of earth, got wind of the plan and sent his son Kalen with a small force of earth faeries to stop it. In the Abyss the battle was long and bloody. Kalen felled Erkod but was struck mortally in the exchange. With his soldiers dead around him and pinned by the body of the Abyssal Lord, the great warrior (for a Faerie) felt the blood washing over his wounds. He knew that the power in the Abyssal Lord’s body that could save him. The weak-willed prince, afraid of death, chose to embrace the Demon Lord’s power. Kalen saved himself by drawing the blood into him, thus sealing his fate as the Abyssal Lord of Earth. Kalen realized that he was now bound to the Abyss and unable to return to his home and family, but figured he could find a way around the pact and mantle he now bears. Kalen, the new Abyssal Lord of Earth, reveled in his new power and it seemed to compliment his already vast Faerie power. Soon enough, he got bored and felt constrained by being stuck in the Abyss. Something you mortals have figured out is that Abyssal Lords require vast amounts of power and sacrifice to leave the Abyss, which is I guess good for you. Your no-longer-good-friend Kalen decided he wanted to leave and keep all his power, but he was patient like his father. This was far long ago. After much time had passed Xualla and Balfurious left the Abyss. Kalen saw this and began forming a plan. When you mortals graciously helped my Lord ascend her rightfully earned throne, Kalen saw a potential and avenue to enact his escape. Kalen kept his plans and actions close to his wounded corrupted demonic heart and no one suspected his plan. You may feel used by the Abyssal Lord of Earth but, trust me he would've escaped either way. His Abyssal Legionnaire taking the Earth Faerie Key allowed him a connection to your plane and allowed him the ability to grow the portal with his power. Once Tonun Preaxon the Shambling Menace was slain, its power went to Kalen and with that extra power returned - he broke through that portal. I apologize for my rambling and prattling, please forgive this feeble imp. Here we are and I will reiterate my Lord Mother and the Jailor’s offer. They wish to have Kalen returned to the Abyss to take his throne so that the Abyss, the plane of earth, and potentially your plane do not fall into ruin. You mortals are dealing with so much and I know it can be a burden. The Abyssal Lords of Ice and Fire can help you secure Kalen and protect you in the Abyss where he must be brought. I know you do not trust us and definitely shouldn’t, but Kalen’s return is beneficial for both of us(Demons and Mortals). I know you mortals have qualms with Abyssal creatures, I don't blame you, but we are coming to you first for aid and temporarily stopping hostilities until the situation is decided. There will be a detailed and written contract for you mortals to decide upon. I guarantee it will be in your best interest to side with my Master, she has kept her word in not interfering...but you mortals will make the right choice.

Your Most Loyal and Humble Servant,
Q’aare’zl aka Karl

P.S. Please don’t tell the Abyssal Lords I wrote this. Thank you.

(OOG Note: its plainly obvious that this is written by a person with a very limited grasp of Kormyrian- this is clearly not a native speaker, and if the person could fix this with percussive maintenance, he would, and likely with relish.)

I'm just trying to make sense of it all. So, I'll lay out me thoughts and feel free ta correct me, or make your own decision. I'll be waitin' ta help administer equal opportunity kickings on whate'er needs it.

1. this deal comes at a low point- we're not negotiatin' fra a position o' strength.
2. Demons will try to bugger us th' first opportunity they get. its their nature.
3. the Demons are na exactly strong either. Wi' Kaley Mattel gone, their realm is off balanced, and this is bad- fra' both their realm and ours. so they're not exactly strong either.
4. the Abyssal Laird O' Lightnin' is na among those offerin' help. this is Kaley's polar opposite, and his perfect foil.
5. Kaley Mattel is a corrupted farmer Faerie, and seeks ta return hame.

Am I missin' anythin'?

((OOG: added to Donnie's missive))

5. Kaley Mattel [strike]is[/strike] a corrupted farmer Faerie, and seeks ta return hame.

He may or may not be. This rumor of confirmation needs to stop proliferating.

I oppose any deal with Demons. Any deal we make will not benefit us, even if it seems so in the short term.

As an expert on demons and their morality, I say nay, we should never make a deal with a demon.

It is always only to benefit them.

With but a mere glance at the contract.

Too many loopholes.
Too many ambiguities by letter of the law that we could suffer the effects of these two demons - or any of their abyssal allies.
Too many times that demons have contributed to the suffering of the people of Arawyn - which might or might not speak to these particular pair of demons and their obsequious imp, but certainly should make us give pause.

Is this true that they seek to "help us" do all the work?
They provide information. Could we not seek another means of information: the faerie, our scholars, other allies?
They promise to cease any offensive actions for six months if we help them? That sounds more like extortion.

I will peruse this document further with more than an ounce of skepticism and with much attention to the details of the law within the context of justice and light.

Father Ephrem

We await your counter offer. This is just a draft. Write a counter proposal for me to bring to them that is more fair.

Q'aare'zl

My counter offer:

Surrender.

When there are demons before the Barony, Travance is not what lies belly up in the aftermath.
We rise victorious.
May this serve as merely the latest example.
We will not shirk from our duty.
We will fly high the banner of the Kingdom.
We will bleed blue and red.

We will rise, as Julie did against Xualla,

In defiance.

~Nalick Underhill

I speak only as a subject to the King of Kormyre and a mortal man,

Demons are predicated on self-interest and entropy. The laws and contracts they construe are built to bind their constituents and free themselves based on their abuse of language and good faith. Bring forth all breed of devil and I shall make dalliance with them, for their word is that of God.

Those of common ken will forget the wounds their kind have dealt our kin but God does not forget their trespasses, so I shall honor my covenant and grant them no such lenience in this matter. They wish this earth king returned; we may grant them this in pieces with their aid to our exact measure and order, but they shall send us forces to distribute in good faith. A contract is often between peers, and the incursion has proved that they are no peer.

In essence; Plow demons. Plow the demonic lords and ladies. Plow their entire plane.

They have not yet earned our favor.
Robert Finemann

---

The better proposal...

The assembled forces of Fire and Ice do the heavy lifting/fighting to return their brother back to the proper seat. Travance secures the borders of the conflict to attempt there are no leakers getting away, to include the renegade lord- in essence, we provide security and a cordon on the area being fought in. A bit more efficient use of available resources.

This ultimately is their problem... If they truly want help and to not set us up for conquest, then they should be doing the lion-share of the work and Travance supports their efforts. While it does not eliminate the prospect of double-cross by Mother and Jailor, it makes the prospect of it happening substantially smaller.

This original proposal as put forth is shite and sets Travance up for failure; it is Travancian Blood, Sweat, Energy and Tears being used and expended... which sets the Barony up for being assaulted by its enemies. A fools choice.

I genuinely do not see them rushing to help us should Tamaria decide now is the time to invade- winter or no- or if one of their fellow Lords decides to take Travance as a vacation spot.

This Brazen Priest says No- any one of the Flock would tell you that inaddition to being a shite idea, its is extremely inefficient and a giant suckhole of Travancian Resources.

-Duncan MacKenzie
Templar-Priest of Brazen

We will be doing the "heavy lifting" if you agree to the contract. There is a lot of fighting in the Abyss that has to be done to make the Abyssal legionaires head your way and draw Kalen back to the portal. Things you mortals cannot do nor have to. Plus when you go into the Abyss the allied Lords will be protecting you from the most devastating effects of being a positive energy creature. You can ask the slayer, magnus, ilana, philidin, the vile lord aleister, and many others in your town how devastating existing in the Abyss is for you. Truly I am trying to help. The contract also means you will not turn on us as I see so many ready to destroy me.

Q'aare'zl