Rules Clarification: Costume vs. Professional armor

A clarification to what counts as Costume versus Professional armor has been made.  The relevant text has been clarified to read as follows:

In Knight Realms, the value of a piece of armor is judged by two things: the amount of protection it gives (what it covers and how sturdy it is), and how authentic it is. Good, thick armor that looks like it was cobbled together in your garage will do, but a suit of armor that is made from authentic materials and design will offer greater protection.

This eliminates the discrepancy that armor that "looks real" but is not gets Pro grade status.

I take it that this means that aluminum is not to be considered professional grade?

Correct.  We'd thought about this one for a while, but any deciding factor other than confirmed facts (i.e. - materials, instead of how good it looks) left the door open to arguments over how realistic a physrep is each time a new one is evaluated, and too many gray areas when assigning AP.

Out of curiousity, how far does this extend?  Steel arguably dates back to 4000 BC for extreme examples, with very obvious widespread steelmaking past 1100 AD, but clearly modern steelmaking techniques were not in use at the time.  Is any sort of steel allowable, or are there certain limitations, such as density/weight?  I doubt that there'd be much objection to, say, stainless steel being used for practicality concerns, but something like titanium alloy might be pushing it.

I might be missing something.

Metal armor made from a lighter material is costume grade now?

Latex armor that looks like plate, but isn't, is definitely Costume grade, no matter how cool it looks.  "Shark Mail" (the micro-weave chain mail used by bodyguards and in fisher's gloves) that is machine made from modern materials is also past that line, as nothing that fine could ever be made by hand.  Other materials, I'll try to get a clarification on where the line is.

The root of this update is that there was a discrepancy in the rules.  One spot stated that it MUST be completely authentic, the other spot implied it only had to LOOK authentic.  When we realized this, we had to choose one or the other.

And that's why I like chainmail.

Would armor that was previously "pro-grade" be grandfathered though? It seems kind of unfair that someone may have spent hundreds of dollars on micro-weave chain mail knowing that they would get a lot of armor points and a soak, and it's now barely even worth wearing.

Alright. That makes sense now. Thanks.

One more thing though. Some chainmail is made from light weight metals, but still metal (4 in 1 design). Is it based on look and weight, or do we have to submit a metallurgist report on how much niobium is in the metal?

If you've already got an item card, great, keep it. If you need a new item card at some point, we're going to evaluate your phys rep all over again and apply the current rules at the time.

Regarding the meaning of "authentic materials and design", we're not going to split hairs over whether the steel was forged using 13th century techniques or not. What we are saying is that if the materials or design of the armor are obviously out of step with that era, it's only costume grade. If you buy armor that it intended to be a replica made of real steel or leather, then you're 90% likely going to have some professional grade armor on your hands. It would have to suck as bad as the Mets to fail to get that grade.

It would have to suck as bad as the Mets to fail to get that grade.

ZING!

--Skimmel

what about 'kithain' designs?  the correct material is laquered wood with many layers of laquer then conected by weaving silk cord -

what about the resin 'fake' horn/bone/leather?  It looks right; it's affordable, and unless someone has thousands to spend on having the armor professionally made, it is unrealistic to have the Bushido style armor.

I have to admit, I'm a bit curious about this myself because I have a friend that's a new player coming in with actual bones as a part of his chain armor (didn't know they sold deer bones... :shrug:) He'd still get some kind of AP for the bone part, yea?

If the bone is bone, then yes, it's authentic.  (Bone is actually a listed material in the Armor rules.)  To clarify, if the whole thing is authentic, it gets Pro Grade status.  If it's not, it gets Costume Grade status.  So resin, plastic, etc. still give you AP, just not as many, and not a soak.

Want some deer bones, let me know.  Ribs, femurs, the whole works are laying around just waiting for some lucky [strike]demon dog[/strike] person to take them away.  By spring, they are pretty well flensed.  Can also provide pig bones in July.  come to think of it when I last roasted a pig at feast, someone took the ribs.

I think any modification that lessens any armor type is bad. 

I think we should encourage the use of armor and give huge bonuses for it, and even more for real amror.

For the micro-weave chain, since alot of players have it why not make it anothe rsmithing option to create micro-weave chainmail and have it take more time and cost more CP. I think thought would make everyone happy.

Go to the Met's Medieval section.  Find the mail that Saladin presented to Richard II.  It is micro, in that a pin could not penetrate its triple link system.  It is flexible in that the wearer can perform calisthenics.  It is impractical, as it is made of silver.  Wait - Elven chain!!

Aluminum is out, because for all practical purposes, it could not be refined during the period, needing temperatures of around 2,000 degrees F to smelt.  I believe the same is true of titanium, although it has a wonderful weight coefficient compared to steel.

What about this...  Since a fair amount of people DO have the micro-mesh chainmail, what if we made that a designated phys rep for Mithril armor?  Mithril is supposedly lightweight to begin with, and if you look at most movies set in that sort of era, a similar weave is used for that armor type.  This would also compensate the additional time it takes to smith the armor, while at the same time keeping the current player base that DOES have it and already invested in it happier.

The issue with that is that a player used OOG money/resources to get a suit of IG mithril armor.  Remember mithril turns body damage attacks to regular damage as well as generally has higher AP and Soak.

My personal opinion is to teat costume armor like latex weapons.  These weapons are lighter, look better, and generally perform better for the user.  Drawback is that they have to use them properly or gewt their priveleges revoked.

No, perhaps you misunderstand me Paul.  If they have a suit of Mithril Chainmail armor IG already, allow the micromesh to be used as a phys rep for it as opposed to the heavier more historically accurate style.

I know we cannot REQUIRE a designated phys rep, but it was just an idea I was throwing out there.

Oh.. Yeah, I did misread that.  No worries.

As per Ap for Professional grade leather armor, Will the gauge of the armor play a factor in the amount of AP you get?. I also have a leather pig skin war skirt that is thin but a bit rigid, Its is made of real leather. Would this be considers costume?  I'm sure it would need to obviously be inspected in person, but i was just wondering what your thoughts would be.

AP is determined by coverage, but not thickness.

I'll ask about micro-mesh, and we'll determine what it counts as.  If it's steel, it's still authentic materials, but if it's aluminum, it's not.

I think any modification that lessens any armor type is bad. 

I think we should encourage the use of armor and give huge bonuses for it, and even more for real amror.

QFT.

This is discouraging people to go out of their way to acquire great looking phys-reps, IMO.

Or, rather, it isn't offering as much encouragement. I think the latex armor and the micro-mesh mail look amazing, and really add to the atmosphere of the game. I know I wouldn't go out and spend the money on these things, or worry about going through the hassle of wearing them without some kind of tangible benefit. We already require armor to be "imbued" before it's worth anything as an ablative protection, this just makes it that much harder for armor to be worth wearing.

Perhaps, a third option should be added. Aesthetic.

It looks like real armor, but isn't real armor. Something in the mix. Micro-mesh and Latex armor are aestheticly armor, but not professionally armor.

And yes, more want into wearing armor is always good.

Or, rather, it isn't offering as much encouragement. I think the latex armor and the micro-mesh mail look amazing, and really add to the atmosphere of the game. I know I wouldn't go out and spend the money on these things, or worry about going through the hassle of wearing them without some kind of tangible benefit. We already require armor to be "imbued" before it's worth anything as an ablative protection, this just makes it that much harder for armor to be worth wearing.

The reason the "imbued" rule is in place is because before it was, Blacksmiths would sit around doing nothing while people walked in with 100 AP of armor fresh-up, and never need their services.  The imbuing is very fast and inexpensive IG, and armor with a soak is still beneficial without it.

Also remember that there is still a benefit to costume grade armor, it's just not as high as the benefit of wearing something that is authentic.  We're rewarding someone that gets something amazing and adding atmosphere - authentic armor - with a healthy does of AP and a soak.  This benefit SHOULD be higher than the benefit for armor that is latex, or obviously not realistic looking.

The key point to this ruling is that it did NOT change any rules - it is a clarification of existing rules, fixing a discrepancy in the wording that made it sound like fake armor that looked good enough would be treated as real.  Costume grade armor still grants AP, and we are not removing that fact - we're only clarifying what is Pro grade, versus what is Costume.

I mis-spoke on micro-mesh armor, on the assumption that it was aluminum.  The Rules Marshals are discussing the ramifications of it being costume versus pro-grade.

The tensile strength of aluminum is not anywhere near that of primitive steel, let alone the lacquered stuff worn in Japan and China, which was really something.  The weight factor is also something with which to be reckoned.  Some of the "costume" armor looks fabulous, but does not even come close to the weight of authentic armor.  One should be appropriately rewarded for walking around with 20 - 30 pounds of steel hanging on one's frame in July.  Major breaks are already cut on shields, but on the other hand, we do not practice a few hours every day year in and out.

Want lighter good looking armor - pay the price in reduced protection numbers. 

So, despite the ridiculous difference in cost, and the fact that the hybrid amror sold by By the Sword looks better than the 'real' thing,

This: www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/European_B...16_Gauge_AB0088.html

Gives a soak and AP,

While this:
www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/LARP_Gothic_Cuirass_DC-509c.html

Gives only AP?

I have to say that that really doesn't make sense whatsoever.  A player who shells out nearly $600 on absolutely fantastic looking armor gets 16 Armor points in the above examples.

A player who spends $138 on very basic armor that looks FAR worse than the latex (despite being real steel) gets 36 armor points and a soak of 3.

Speaking in no capacity for KR whatsoever, the 16 gauge breastplate to which you refer, is way to light to afford the type of protection needed on a battlefield.

Besides, now speaking as a professional, I do not think looks or money was the criteria for good armor.