Item Rules Reminder

There were several issues with compliance with the item rules this past event and I want to direct your attention to them once again:

www.knightrealms.com/index.php?option=co...ew&id=331&Itemid=179

I have about a dozen receipts from players who stole things this past event, and complied with the rules and took those things directly to Logistics and were given receipts for them. The purpose of the receipt is so that the player can return to Logistics later and get the item card, which the owner is supposed to surrender upon retrieving the phys rep. That I have a dozen irredeemable receipts means that there are a dozen Rules Violations to be handed out, because a dozen items were stolen in accordance with the rules of the game and the players whose characters were robbed ignored those rules and retrieved their belongings without surrendering the item cards.

Obviously it's very unlikely that I will catch the people involved in these infractions, because my receipts say things like "1HE" and little else, since absent the item card the MM cannot have known what properties the item had that would have made it distinctive. So, good job to those of you who retrieved your things because you got away this time.

If you made an honest mistake and would like to make good on it, feel free to PM me about any phys reps that you recovered from Logistics this event and I'll see if I have a receipt that matches them; if I don't, then you're free and clear.

Yes, I run the rogue plot and therefore thieving is near and dear to my heart (hmm, that doesn't sound good), but this is also a fundamental matter of the game rules - rules that were recently revised to be as clear and direct as possible. If you play a character that steals alot, you should know these rules like a caster should know his spell effects. If you are a character that is likely to be the target of thieves, you should also take the time to know these rules, for many reasons while will be evident when you read them. These rules do in fact protect the victims as much as they protect the thieves by safeguarding the treatment of phys reps and by forcing consistent treatment of all items.

If the associated Item Card for a Phys Rep is attached to it or placed beneath it, a player can only take the Item Card during an IG theft, unless the Item Card specifies that the Phys Rep must be stolen.

MUST be stolen, or MAY be stolen?

MUST.

Sometimes, someone decides it's easier for them and their friends to spot, for example, someone carrying Sorel's polearm than it is to spot somebody leaving a cabin with the card for said weapon in their pocketses.
In that case, the item cards are marked as phys-rep stealable, meaning you must steal both the phys-rep and the card in order to turn it in.

The flip side of that is that the player with phys-rep stealable items must attach the card to the phys-rep, or leave them together. If they fail to do so, that should be a  rules violation.

Are you allowed to steal the physrep and then send an RM to get the card from the weapon's rightful owner?

Three clarifications.

1. Vince's last paragraph is not entirely accurate. The rules for items require that all item cards be attached to or within five feet of the item's phys rep. Failure to comply is a Rules Violation. The "phys rep stealable - yes" checkbox on item cards means that you want the player to take the phys rep; Vince's example is an excellent illustration of why you might want this. It also means that the player cannot deposit the phys rep at Logistics, because he or she is required to keep it as proof of possession of the item.

2. If an item card is attached to or placed with an item, and the card is marked "phys rep stealable - no", then the player can only take the item card. Taking the phys rep in that instance is a Rules Violation.

3. If a player sees a prop and cannot determine if that prop is just an OOG prop or a phys rep of an IG item, then the player is allowed to take the prop, but must take it to Logistics and deposit it. If the player keeps the prop longer than is necessary to get it to Logistics, then the player is guilty of a Rules Violation. One way to ensure that a thief can tell the difference is to comply with the item rules and place your cards with your IG items. You should find that thieves will leave your props alone if they can identify the things in your cabin that they can really steal IG, because no thief wants to go clunking around in the night with three lanterns, a decorative bowl, a zweihander, and a gold necklace if the only thing that is an IG item is the necklace...

In answer to Zach's question, yes, but if you steal something from Zahir's cabin and have no idea where Chris is, then an RM can decline to assist you until he is located. In other words, RMs aren't your personal search parties. If you know who the item belongs to and where that person is, an RM will be happy to help.

How should Item Cards for ammunition be handled?  Say Archer A has 10 phys-rep arrows they are carrying, but has cards for 20 normal, 15 electrum, and 5 magical arrows.  Archer A keeps the item cards attached to the quiver.  Can the thief choose which arrows they are taking or must the thief identify/evaluate the arrows first and spend time thinking which ones they want to take?  Or does Archer A must specify which arrows are which?

It also means that the player cannot deposit the phys rep at Logistics, because he or she is required to keep it as proof of possession of the item.

2. If an item card is attached to or placed with an item, and the card is marked "phys rep stealable - no", then the player can only take the item card. Taking the phys rep in that instance is a Rules Violation.

I'm slightly confused by this.  If "phys rep stealable - yes" means that you can't deposit the item at logistics, and "phys rep stealable - no" means that you can't take the item, under what circumstances should a thief be depositing something into logistics?


--Skimmel

It also means that the player cannot deposit the phys rep at Logistics, because he or she is required to keep it as proof of possession of the item.

2. If an item card is attached to or placed with an item, and the card is marked "phys rep stealable - no", then the player can only take the item card. Taking the phys rep in that instance is a Rules Violation.

I'm slightly confused by this.  If "phys rep stealable - yes" means that you can't deposit the item at logistics, and "phys rep stealable - no" means that you can't take the item, under what circumstances should a thief be depositing something into logistics?


--Skimmel

I am NOT a Rules Marshal.  My comments should only be taken as my opinions and interpretations from questions answered by Rules Marshals.  This is not in any way an official answer.

- phys rep stealable - no:  When stealing the item you may only take the item card.  If the item card is not attached, under the item, or within 5 feet of the item that you can see, you may steal the phys rep, however the phys rep must be turned in at logistics within a reasonable period of time after the theft.  You obviously don't want to be seen walking around with the item, but it does belong to someone else and you want it to be in logistics when they come looking for it so they can turn in the item card.  This is why someone that finds an item of theirs missing should check in at logistics periodically.

- phys rep stealable - yes:  When you steal this item you need to take the phys rep and the item card.  Both should stay together until you are able to "off-load" the item, at which point you or a marshal will return said item to logistics or the individual depending on situation.  If the item card is not attached, under the item, or within 5 feet of the item that you can see, you may steal the phys rep, however the phys rep must be turned in at logistics within a reasonable period of time after the theft.

In either case, my opinion is that it is bad form to hold onto a phys rep beyond Clean-up Hold.  I would recommend speaking to on of the Marshals at that point and informing them that you have a stolen item and want to hand it in so the owner can get back the phys rep (and you can get the item card  )

A Rules Marshal please correct me if I am wrong.  My word is not law.  All hail www.jamesckimball.com/

Damien broke that down correctly. The circumstance under which you can take a phys rep but then must take it to Logistics is when you take something that does not have an item card with it or attached to it.

Now as a general rule, I would advise anyone pillaging a cabin to consider the presence of item cards on any items as proof of what are IG items and what are OOG props. That is, if the player has already complied with the rules by placing a weapon card next to his claymore prop, then you should assume that the silver bowl on the little altar to Galladell is not an IG item if it has no card. The coin inside the bowl, however...

Presently the rules allow you take everything no matter the circumstance. This is to force compliance with the item rules, because even if you decide to ignore those rules a thief can still rob your items from you. But if it gets out of hand and I hear about characters taking everything in cabins where IG items were clearly marked, then the rules will be reconsidered. At the moment I think the greater problem is people not complying with the item rules. If players misbehave and take props unnecessarily to the point that it's a consistent problem, then we'll change the rules and stop it.

In answer to Paul's question, it doesn't matter. If the arrows are not phys rep stealable then the thief can take all of the cards and go. If they are stealable, then the thief takes all of the arrows that are present and the item cards and is considered to be in possession of all of the arrows on all of the cards (just as the original owner of those arrows was considered to have them all).