The in game section of the forums.

Just my Opinion:

I have to say I do not like all the ego whipping by the "nobles" I see in the in-game forums. (I ORDER you to do this or that, throe you in jail, fine you, etc...) Also the removal of posts that really should not be removed, etc. All of this is ruining my between event entertainment :evil: I also know for certain it is ruining at least a few others forum experiences. If you need an "in-game" reason as to why you would NOT get involved, just say the random postings of the common folk are not worth your time and ire or whatever.

This kind of thing simply creates a culture where people get fed up OOG and do not want to post anything and is a big turn off as far as getting people excited about playing the game and visiting or posting anything in the forums. So I humbly ask to please be humble!

Just let the post fly as they are, let them get heated, let the debates continue, and then deal with consequences that directly affect a character in-game, in person, at an event. Not only does this give people something to do between events, it gives other people something TO do AT the next event....(IE: print out these posts on parchment and confront those who irk you, insulted you, or whatever...think of the possibilities! LOL)

IMO actions that affect a character directly such as fining, jail, etc should NOT be allowed via the forums, everything else should be fair game (barring things like vulgar profanity, etc). Let people post and then have fun dealing with the consequences at events. I once played a LARP where the forums were set up pretty much as I previously stated, and a LOT of cool plot and character interactions were borne frome it.

All of this serves as great entertainment between events and yet another really great reason to bring traffic to the forums.

-JR

While I can understand your point, one should realize that, from an in-game (and out-of-game) standpoint, the nobility and the guard are trying to keep the peace as well as possible. Allowing everyone's proverbial dirty laundry to be flaunted in public without repercussion can possibly create far more drastic IG situations in the future. PVP situations, while not necessary discouraged, also shouldn't be encouraged because I think people would have a better chance of being OOG fed up after being ripped through the phocus than from having an IG post removed.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that PMs are a more private and unmoderated form of IG correspondence, so long as you're not making someone OOG uncomfortable.

In my opinion, i find there are some great discrepancies with posts that are taken down, vs those left on the boards.

A horribly vulgar, and descriptive post was left for and directed at an 'evil' character. it was extremely detailed, and could easily offend a player.
Yet some harmless discussions, and other FAR LESS vile writings get 'torn down' Characters fined etc. because a noble wants to end discussion.
Public apologizes, jail time, etc handed out to characters for posting FAR LESS inflammatory posts.
Yet, what was EASILY the most offensive thing i have read IG, went completely untouched by any noble, moderator, etc.
In Game posts are IN GAME, if a character wishes to put themselves into a position where bad things CAN happen. It should be up to THEM to censor what it is they are posting. And if a post IS removed, i think, at the very least, the moderator who is removing it, should reach out to the player, let them know WHY it was removed, so they may reword the point they were trying to make, as it COULD be a fairly important plot or character development for them.

Why is this in announcements and not in a event recap? Just wondering.

I think Keith has a great point. I think it comes down to, everybody has different values of enjoyment when they come to a larp. Nobody is trying to hinder anybodies good time but I believe they are trying to play their characters just the same as anybody else.

Not to mention, In a larp that still has a Lord > Knight > Vassal > Commoner medieval-type power structure it shouldn't be too surprising that players who hold the upper tier of positions may take use of the positions. It seems the only way to genuinely avoid people from pulling the "nobility card" as it were would be to make it so there is NO in game nobility. Which is presently not the case.

I'm locking this post for now, I just don't really want a huge debate about this... Will call some of you guys to talk about it.

OK unlocking this post, but still seriously I do not want a huge debate on this, and honestly I agree that this would have been better served as a recap instead of a public post.

I will explain my position on this. I understand both sides of this coin, very fully. I thought about it at great lengths before allowing the addition a whole bunch of new in-game boards.

I agree that people reading the boards as players will get discouraged if they see thier posts being removed in-game and if they are "yelled" at by nobility. Generally it is my hope that the players who play nobility will be sensitive to players on an OOG level as well as an in-game level regardless of RPing thier character though this might not be the case 100% of the time, and tempers may flair in-game.

However... an in-game board has to be an in-game board... and there are people in charge who can in-game moderate them. This has to be allowed to happen, otherwise it just dosnt make in-game sense. If someone feels discouraged by it and wants to encourage a change in in-game behavior, they should contact in-game nobility that are higher up than the ones in question and explain that displeasure, so that it can be handled from an in-game standpoint.

Thats pretty much it. So basically while I understand about the worry about the way the in-game boards are handled... that worry should be addressed in-game not oog.

I thought this was the more appropriate place to discuss this. I certainly did not think it was appropriate to discuss this on the in-game boards, so I brought it up here. My apologies if you all think this is more of an in-game matter than an out-of-game matter. Personally I see it as more of an out-of-game issue. My intention was not to start a heated debate!!! Rather, point out how fun the IG boards could be and the possibilities it brings to actual game play if the interesting drama wasn't cut off by nobility or just deleted as often as it is.

Take note of which boards were taken down and which were kept up. Note how the content of one board is very similar to another, but the one which started breeding name calling, yelling, and other 'trollish' behavior was taken down while the other which contained a civil discussion about the same subject matter is still opened and unlocked.

The threads as of late, in my opinion have been done so very well and professionally. Nobility was just the reasoning behind it being taken down, when in reality the moderators were stopping flame wars, no different than in any other forum. I support the decisions of the staff in the recent thread closings.

The majority of nobles are good about being nobles, I've had brush ins with a few, but I have only ever seen one person killed for it; and it was within the confines of the law not because the noble was just murder happy. To add some positivity to this, I want to thank the people on the forums for taking the time to moderate, read, and interact. I've been much more interested and much more excited being part of an active board between this event and the next than ever before. If a thread is closed, you can always make a new one. Just think about why it was closed and try to adjust the attitude of the thread, rather than the content. It works wonders.

To be honest, and this may just be the case for me, but I feel like it really comes down to knowing whether or not you're being insulting or if you're just being curious. When I post, I generally know full well (and sometimes hope) that someone finds the post insulting, as that's what my character would do. She doesn't usually say something if it wouldn't rattle minds or try to make people think. Though I have yet to directly insult a noble because my character is aware it's not a wise move, though there may come a time when she does so.

I feel like the noble's do a good job at doing what they do, and I think they have been justified in their actions. Perhaps it's because I'm used to being yelled at in game for things but there are punishments for insulting nobles (since it's a law) and you really can't expect to just get away with it just because you want to. This is still an IG board and nobles will be there as if it was at the game itself. Like some have offered, if you really want to get into it with someone, PM them.

Even with what's happened I think it's gotten people stirred up in the right way!

As the author of some of the 'trollish' post:

IG is IG. Dan's character essentially called out my brother as a devil worshiper and overall big meanie jerk head. I'm going to call him out on it. I made a blatant attempt to pick a fight, and I'm surprised it was left it up. Take it as IG info - there was someone politically connected enough to keep my antagonizing message up and in the limelight.

We're in a late-feudal society. Class and roles are very clearly defined, you listen to your social betters, and try to get away with what you can. Lords and other nobles can and should be throwing their weight around. That's kind of the point of being the top 0.1% of the feudal world.

Tensions are also high, and the blood rushes to our head. And I would like to apologize for what I had said, because I acted before thinking, and looking back at what I said I realized that I shouldn't have said anything in the first place. I'm sorry.

As someone who's been watching KR for a year now, NPC-weekended twice, and wants to come back when time/money allow, I'd like to toss my two cents in:

Nothing I've seen, and I've been watching for a bit, has discouraged me from wanting to come back to KR, and I'll be as far from being nobility as it really gets when I bring my PC. I certainly see how the nobility can be frustrating, angering, even downright degrading. But I see that within the lens of the character being so. It's soft PVP, and I encourage that sort of thing so long as it's done knowing that out of character, we're all still huge nerds who love a hobby and come together to play every month and enjoy one another's company, if not that of our characters. I've known PC's that I outright despised, that I worked to destroy physically and politically. Many of these have been very close friends and honestly that made the in character vitriol even that much more amusing as we'd laugh about how absurd or righteous our PC's anger was.

And this is just the boards, which your character can choose how they interact with. Come at it from a roleplaying perspective, if you like: The nobles are, in your estimate, being terrible. The players are being players, they're enriching the world. But your character doesn't have to like it! It can breed resentment and even possibly subversive behavior - engage that, but don't let the emotions spill over. Keep your IC dramas -in- character and have fun with them! Watch with glee as your PC squirms with irritation and foments dissent! -Revel- in the dark side of roleplay as much as the light, knowing that, in the end, we're telling a story in which good guy/bad guy isn't a clear line.

Recently at another game I had an item stolen in game. Out of game we were laughing about it - the lift was almost perfect, but I spotted him. even found him later, and let him pass by, just to keep him -nervous-. In character, I was -furious-. But me? I loved the roleplay it created and still is. If you can separate that and take even the worst of other character's behaviors as just a part of the game, it makes things so much more fun!

I know that the social stratification can cross a line (I'm a social activist, part of me wants to scream when I deal with "nobles"! But all in good fun), it can become oppressive if it's not watched, but my experiences with KR have been thus far good. I wouldn't trust 80% of the characters as far as my scrawny dryad arms could throw them, but I'd say that of every LARP I've been to! The players I love interacting with, though.

If you feel that the atmosphere is off, however, that's different. This all seemed very much in line with the characters (what I know of them) and the realm. A bit soft PVP, yes, but far from game breaking at all. Take it all as an opportunity to grow in unexpected directions as a character - those are often the most interesting. Or, if you feel it's the wrong atmosphere for you, voice concerns or find a new realm - there's nothing wrong with that either! I've left plenty of games that just did not suit me, atmospherically. KR I'm still on the fence about, but it attracts me so much I just -gotta- know Also, my friends are doing the "one of us" chant...

The lords and the haughty are there TO BE HAUGHTY. It's part of what they do. They also bankroll and command a lot of town works and when things go -really- wrong, their heads roll. You'd know this as part of the society. You'd either be willing to play their games or not and both avenues, and all those roads in between offer so many opportunities! I admit to taking the easy way out, I'm going to create a character that hardly knows their games exist, at first

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm hoping you'll be encouraged to look at this as an opportunity to engage unexpected roleplaying muscles, to really get a feel for how your character reacts to people being unpleasant. Let it take you off course and drag you into something you didn't expect, or push you off towards a new goal you'd not seen. Or, find a way to vandalize the in game boards and make mockery of the system you hate :evil: But whatever you do, -always- say yes to engaging consequences and surprises and you'll never be bored at a LARP. It's improve at 200 MPH, standing on a tightrope and balancing tea cups. Even if you fail, it'll be spectacular.

I see nothing wrong with the Nobles being able to roleplay being Noble. Yes, this means they can tell others what to do, comes with the job description ya know. What is a real adjustment for most larpers is that in a medieval society you play by medieval rules. There is rarely any democracy in such a society, nor are there considerations for basic human rights. There is no Declaration of Independence nor a Constitution. In this society there is not even an equivalent to the Magna Carta, which gave some medieval classes rights under the law. If being a Noble means anything it means being the representative of the King and his delegate in matters of running a small part of his kingdom. That hierarchy descends in progressively smaller parts until you get to the Knights whose purview is fighting war and administering the King's Justice. Yes, they can tell you to stop posting, yes they can run you through for speaking out of turn. If you have a problem with these things, either don't talk in their range of hearing, or avoid talking about things you know will cause you trouble. If you decide to ignore both pieces of advise, then enjoy your consequences.

I have played a noble in another game, for about a decade. Did I put my foot in my mouth, overstep my authority sometimes? Sure I did. Was I in peril of losing my rank and privilege when I did so, yes I was. Did the people who were irritated with me for being 'an arrogant noble' still come running for help when something happened? You bet your sweet bippy, and that happened constantly, at all times of day or night. So, my perspective is that you might not like a Noble, nor respect him personally, but if you need something done within his sphere of authority, you are going to have to suck it up. Which makes these high minded comments of basic rights and OOG courtesy kind of hypocritical really. You only treat a Noble with respect when you want something? Sure, that works for you I guess. :whistle:

The point is, to roleplay being in a medieval era, you would be trained to at least feign respect of Nobles, at all times, because your character would know with certainty that there are consequences for failing to. If you consciously choose to act with disdain towards Nobles, do not cry to anyone about what happens. What happens should be manifestly clear. At one point my character, being Lord Magistrate, was counted as the number one cause of player deaths, besting several double digit PC or NPC murderers. I am not proud of this, nor I think, are any Nobles in Travance to be put in that position. Being Noble is actually a sucky job, one which I purposely decided to avoid with my current character. But, its got to be done, and not only to suspend disbelief from our modern world to help everyone immerse themselves into a fantasy setting. It has to be done because without Nobles to keep the rest of us anarchist heathens in line, the game descends into tribal Lord of Flies type nonsense which severely detracts from a fantasy Larp setting.

Just my two cents, still love ya'll!

It is obvious some of you do not know me (my own fault, mostly, because I am not the type that toots my own horn), I have been LARPing since the late 80's and have been in every position a LARP has to offer from pee-on to creator and director of my own LARP. I fully understand how a medieval based LARP operates both in-game and out-of-game, and I am well versed in medieval history.

That said, some of you seem to be missing my point, I am not making an in-game argument, I have no issues with the forums from an in-game perspective. I am talking about what is happening from an out-of-game perspective. Please reread my original post with this in mind and let me know if you think I need to clarify it further, I would be happy to explain it more if need be.

My goal in all of this is to make people aware of what effect their actions on the forums are having with many people and to make the forums more enticing and enjoyable to everyone. As I have said previously, I know for certain of a handful of people (myself included) who do not post because of the current culture of behavior on the boards. One of these folks told me recently:

"I am afraid to post IG because everyone seems so uptight, but I think it would be fun to do so, and a cool way to interact with people I usually do not see in game"

That quote seems to be a sentiment I run into often enough to inspire me to speak up here. I speak up for 2 reasons:

1: In my capacity as a new player marshal, it is my duty to champion the voices of new players, so I do so in this case.

and

2: I have had extremely positive experiences with in-game forums in the past and I would like to have that experience here, not only for myself and my friends, but everyone.

Those forums did not have the bashing by nobles and post removals to the extent I see on these boards. Now I agree moderation is needed for things like vulgar profanity and offensive/inappropriate content, etc, but outside of that, let people post and role-play as they want with the understanding that people who post will reap what they sow and suffer (or benefit from) the consequences. Most reasonable people understand this and are OK with this, in my experience. From what I have seen lately on boards, things would settle down really fast on the forums after one or two heads are lawfully lopped off!!! :evil: :whistle:

James said something I want to emphasize: "Generally it is my hope that the players who play nobility will be sensitive to players on an OOG level as well as an in-game level regardless of RPing their character though this might not be the case 100% of the time, and tempers may flair in-game."

What James said means to me, that sometimes people who play nobility MUST act in a way that may not be "historically accurate" for the betterment of the game as a whole. In this case, I am talking about the forums.

Having played more than one "noble" for many years, as well as having or had positions of in-game and out-of-game authority at my own game and other games, including this one, I have learned that this is very true. It is often a difficult line to walk, but one that is required for the better of the game, IMO. I have always believed being a PC Noble in a LARP should carry in-game AS WELL AS out-of-game requirements and responsibilities. I have seen real life friendships and relationships destroyed over stupid things done by irresponsible and self serving PC's playing "nobles" in the past who acted without thinking about the consequences on the game as a whole.

I believe the PRIMARY duty of people who have been given the honour of a noble title at KR is to help those under their charge to have the best possible LARP gaming experience, (especially newer players) both in-game and MORE importantly, out-of-game. And in so doing make the KR game world better overall as a whole! Believe me, embracing this will have an huge positive effect on the entire game.

This is a game, we should all be here in the spirit of fun and fostering lifelong friendships. Some of the very best of my friends I have met along the long and winding roads of one imaginary world or other!


-JR

These are all very good observations, on both side of the argument. I feel like there is more than enough opinion to read here that there really is no need for more. Hopefully this discussion will help people on both sides of the fence become cognizant of the other viewpoint and in this understanding perhaps new or altered viewpoints could be adapted on either side. Thanks for the discussion guys.

Im locking the thread because I said in my last post I didn't want a huge debate and I feel that the viewpoints posted thus far are enough to give everyone plenty to think on. Thanks!