Old Larper thoughts yet again.

Some interesting reading.

www.examiner.com/examiner/x-7840-LA-LARP...d-characters-in-LARP

I know I consider Aradiel to be a "mover and shaker" and I do not always run out the door to wipe that goblin into a puddle of goo. I like to watch the new generation fight. I like to stand back and rally the troops. Undead and evil...well I run out the door.

We as senior charaters should act more responsible and help draw more people to the game by trying this from time to time. Why would I come back as a level 1 fighter if I never hit anything. Now I am not saying everyone should do this just try to be a responsible RPer....and let the "young crowd" have fun some times we can all find reason to rp this.

xoxo

I can't lie, I lay victim to this article. Radu nailed it right on the head. I love K.R. and have been playing on and off since around 2005? Now, my job does not allow me to have weekends off, and it is quite difficult to put in for an event that I can't properly prepare for (IE. Trying to set up with work me going to the May game and their aren't dates up -- but this is understandable due to that camp not being open yet. This is just an example.) Therefore my character(s) can not be as powerful as most of the other characters in game. And i've seen some players here with 5+ character sheets? Wow...now you earned it, that's amazing! And damn impressive and you should be commended for adding your rich character and its history to the game. But it is hard for other players, especially fighters, to be on the same battlefield. Or as I remember my last game, the n00bs basically make their way into the woods to fight a skeleton mob while the vets stay in the tavern and fight a lich and learn more about plot through him. This singles out the new players from ever becoming PART of the main plot. Their have been events when I have /nothing to do/ with main plot. And i'm basically roleplaying with the people I came with and a small amount of others. And personally on the battlefield I am a "slay-magnet." I'll do my fair share of damage to the mob and finally when strikes me, my favorite word comes out of his mouth lol. But that is all in the fun of roleplay. Either way, i completely agree with this article and this was in fact one of my major reasons for not attending KR for so long. It's nice to see a well-respected vet. player making note of this to his fellow vets. I also understand that it's hard to add a new player into your current roleplay (especially when you have no idea who they are IG) but their are many ways you can add them into the social aspect of the game. Just me 2 cents.

As someone is still considers himself a n00b in rank/power/plot... I'm all for the "mover shakers" trying to pull some of the lower levels in, but they can only do so much.  So if Uber-lvl Master Aradiel hears about some low-to-mid lvl NPC's guarding a side entrance... he can ask some of his low-to-mid lvl fellow players to investigate, but if they choose not to, then he can't do anymore.

Naturally that's the wall you run into. But IG just because (OOG) you are uber-high-level doesn't mean you will be able to command someone's person IG. I know Otagiri's definitely not one to follow orders. Especially from the Clergy (no disrespect Aradiel lol). But their is no harm in "attempting" to get them involved. And not all roleplay is on the battlefield or a patrol. A high level lord notices a low to mid-level player do an outstanding job on the battlefield or handling himself during a social interaction -- commend him afterwards. Learn about your subjects. Maybe one day that can train to be one of your Knights. But you have to give them some form of a shot -- especially because IG they wouldn't just freely speak to someone of higher ranking but someone of higher ranking might address a lower ranking citizen.

I could not disagree more.  Completely separate from the low level plots, often intersecti9ng with high level ones, there are many people who through strength of personality are immediately involved wherever they desire..  Just to mention a few who had major interactions during their first year:  Tobar, Corteccia, Dr. Maxwell, Clans McBane, MacGreagor, and MacSweeney, not to mention the entire Yahtzi family.  I am probably leaving people out.  Ah, Kwildar, the Priest of love.  Amizar has not fought anything, but is integral to several plotlines due to his profession.  I could go on, but there is no need. 

I could not disagree more.  Completely separate from the low level plots, often intersecti9ng with high level ones, there are many people who through strength of personality are immediately involved wherever they desire..  Just to mention a few who had major interactions during their first year:  Tobar, Corteccia, Dr. Maxwell, Clans McBane, MacGreagor, and MacSweeney, not to mention the entire Yahtzi family.  I am probably leaving people out.  Ah, Kwildar, the Priest of love.  Amizar has not fought anything, but is integral to several plotlines due to his profession.  I could go on, but there is no need. 

I thought the purpose of this thread was in relation to combat.  So while Amizar has done a lot for his profession, the main point Jeff was making was on how some players feel they "don't measure up" compared to some others who have been playing a long time and can turn a vampire or a ghoul into a smear on the ground with a swing of their hammer.

Why would I bother braving the cold and fighting an evil werewolf when I know that Lethias will go out and turn it into a bloody hairball under 3 seconds flat.

I could not disagree more.  Completely separate from the low level plots, often intersecti9ng with high level ones, there are many people who through strength of personality are immediately involved wherever they desire..  Just to mention a few who had major interactions during their first year:  Tobar, Corteccia, Dr. Maxwell, Clans McBane, MacGreagor, and MacSweeney, not to mention the entire Yahtzi family.  I am probably leaving people out.  Ah, Kwildar, the Priest of love.  Amizar has not fought anything, but is integral to several plotlines due to his profession.  I could go on, but there is no need. 

I thought the purpose of this thread was in relation to combat.  So while Amizar has done a lot for his profession, the main point Jeff was making was on how some players feel they "don't measure up" compared to some others who have been playing a long time and can turn a vampire or a ghoul into a smear on the ground with a swing of their hammer.

Why would I bother braving the cold and fighting an evil werewolf when I know that Lethias will go out and turn it into a bloody hairball under 3 seconds flat.

Cause there will probably be about 8 more coming lol and he only has so many uses of those slayer skills lmao

Well OOG you know that Lethias will go out and kill those werewolves in 8 seconds flat. And if your character was a heavy fighter why wouldn't you want to go out there and do the work yourself? You are allowed to disagree but the fact still stands that lots of plot can be closed off to a low level character. The groups you named might have been some of the few who were in the right place at the right time and had upper level characters eager enough to follow Jeff's example and allow them in. As i said, i've been on and off for 5 years and I've noticed this fact myself. And if you don't know Otagiri, he did make quite the impact. Though I do agree with Bladesworn that this was believed to be about the combat aspect. I was the one who diverged slightly (and still hold to my beliefs.)

Right... so if we get back to topic of combat & levels, Jeff was stating how he wished higher lvl characters to try to restrain themselves or give more opportunities to lower lvl characters to shine.  Eric is saying he has seen/experienced what the article spoke of.  Charles disagrees and thinks there's plenty for a character to do that doesn't deal with their lvl.

While I like the sentiment, as I stated before... it's up to the player to make the choice to meet out what challenges they face.  My previous example was a higher up trying to help lower lvls feel good by giving them a shot to face something they can handle.  If they don't take it, then you can't fault the higher lvl person (Nothing to do with clergy.  I just used Aradiel's name or other folks name, cause it made it easier to imagine for me).  I can't really say much on this, as all my time being "low-lvl useless" was spent learning.  I knew I was not as powerful as others, so my character made a choice to become more powerful.  He trained, he learned, he made himself become more useful as time went on (aka made the time/money/build investment).  I still get out-shined in combat... but I expect it, and the times I do shine are noticed.

The other portions of the article Jeff linked were ideas to fix this, but those are game mechanics issues, and aren't really open for debate as that's up to the game staff and owner.

If anyone's interested, I actually wrote a rebuttal to the original post.

blog.calimacil.com/2010/01/overpowered-characters-a-rebuttal/

I've been NPCing on main mod and have seen people who were just out classed. Instead of going 'sucks to be you' I've made sure they didn't suffer that crushing feeling of 'I died my first event, this blows.' While that isn't the case, this is suppose to be for fun and should be enjoyed. Death will happen, but shouldn't be from being somewhere you shouldn't be.

While some people do die, a mistake is not somthing to lose a character over, especially if you like your character. That is an opinion piece for another time, one which I hope is soon, Jeff.

i like tom's take on it.  i mean if i'm npcing something really powerful on main mod or where-ever and i find myself fighting people i know are like level 2 i'm not going to try and really rip into them.  i'll go easy on them and let them enjoy themselves.  if you've been at a few events you can get an idea of who is badass and can take it and who the little guys are.  i feel like when you're npcing the point is to make sure the players  have fun & you should pay attention to these kinds of things to make sure they do

Two things Erim:

First, I don't think anyone is suggesting that any rules get changed or "nerfed" to allow players of wildly varying levels to play together.  The original article just talks about ways to design your game to avoid this problem from cropping up.  For those of you who weren't sure, KR has gone the "Give Everyone Superpowers" route, and it works fine.

And second, exactly how are LARPs and MMOs not social games?  I have been an avid WoW player from the day of release, been in several high end raiding guilds, and still maintain my membership (over 3 years now) in a "guild of friends", yet I have never, not one time seen, nor heard of, a player who played the entire game solo, never interacted with any other players for any reason (trade chat, guild chat, commons chat) and never interacted with any player-driven resources (like auction houses).  Even if you prefer to grind content by yourself, once you start chatting  to the zone, the gmae is now social.  Once you buy or sell something from the auction house, you are playing with others by proxy, and the game becomes social.  Now I am sure there are players who have done just that, but I am equally sure they didn't last very long, as there are other games out there more suited to what they are looking for (Morrowind/ Oblivion, I'm looking at you here).

LARPs are worse.  To solo a LARP you would need to show to the events, check in and get your tags, retreat to a isolated portion of the camp where no one will find you, arrange with the Storytellers to send you occasional single-player plot hooks that don't involve any NPCs or other PCs, get someone to sign your NPC duty card, unless you could arrange to NPC a hermit who sits in his cabin alone and refuses any company (or something similar) at every event.  Who in their right mind would do that?  Who would even want to?

The fact is that RPGs are social games at their core, even the simplest game of D&D involves one player and a DM.  If you don't have an audience, who are you "roleplaying" for?  Yourself?  I usually call that "daydreaming".

All Jeff is suggesting is that just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.  There is a lot to be said for the mature LARPer who recognizes what events he should be influencing and what ones are best left to others.

T

PS: Ahhh, OK I read the WoW article, and the author of said article is confusing "social gaming:" with "time spent playing in groups".  The two are not closely related at all, it is entirely possible to devour content solo while maintaining a very social game persona.  In fact, outside of raid groups, most of the MMOers I know prefer to play solo or in pairs, for a variety of reasons  that have no bearing on this discussion, so I will skip the explanation.

Edit: This IS Jenna... it keeps logging me in as Vince!

PS: Ahhh, OK I read the WoW article, and the author of said article is confusing "social gaming:" with "time spent playing in groups".  The two are not closely related at all, it is entirely possible to devour content solo while maintaining a very social game persona.  In fact, outside of raid groups, most of the MMOers I know prefer to play solo or in pairs, for a variety of reasons  that have no bearing on this discussion, so I will skip the explanation.

Eeeh.... I have to disagree with you about the "confusing" the two thing, only because I happen to be in a position to be especially knowledgable on the subject: a game development professional in the Social Games field. We make ourselves sick with discussions like this lol. I think you're the one confusing "gaming socially" with "Social Games". There's a difference between a game having strong social aspects and existing as a social experience as its main mode of play.

Sigh...So please explain to us the differance?

This thread has been taking in the wrong direction.
I guess I will have to start locking them for the people that miss the point.

Erin....?? How you went onto this road I have no idea. Thats not the point of my series of threads. They are to be read and help people understand how to be constructive and positive.

Terry gets it, Tom pretty much gets it, Sonya as well about 50% get it.

My point is this just read...think and then act and/or respond......read the whole thing for the love of god first.

xoxo

I wasn't actually trying to go off the road Jeff, sorry about that. The original blog post had inspired me to write something related on the Calimacil blog, and since people were keeping the conversation going, I thought it would be nice to include a link to my rebuttal. People sort of ran with it after that...

Consider it closed if you like.

*Note: yay! i logged in!

I wasn't actually trying to go off the road Jeff, sorry about that. The original blog post had inspired me to write something related on the Calimacil blog, and since people were keeping the conversation going, I thought it would be nice to include a link to my rebuttal. People sort of ran with it after that...

Consider it closed if you like.

*Note: yay! i logged in!

Do you read anything? Whats it like in your world? Balloons and cake?

Did somebody say cake?

If so its a dirty god forsaken lie.

 If I may, I agree 100% with Jeff's take on it.  Sometimes the high level characters just need to sit in the rocking chairs and watch the goblins run amuck thru town while the lower level characters chase them down. I have done it myself more than once in the past out here in Indiana. I know I will get my chance to swing some foam sooner or later as a PC or as an NPC.  Now if a troll or Skeletal Warrior walks into town, sure I would be remiss if I didn't get off my duff and help with the problem; it's expected.

 The majority of newer players are attracted to LARPing because they get to have sword fights, not because they heard they could play dragon poker in the inn all weekend. So it's up to the older, experienced players to let them have that experience when it becomes available.

 If I may, I agree 100% with Jeff's take on it.  Sometimes the high level characters just need to sit in the rocking chairs and watch the goblins run amuck thru town while the lower level characters chase them down. I have done it myself more than once in the past out here in Indiana. I know I will get my chance to swing some foam sooner or later as a PC or as an NPC.  Now if a troll or Skeletal Warrior walks into town, sure I would be remiss if I didn't get off my duff and help with the problem; it's expected.

 The majority of newer players are attracted to LARPing because they get to have sword fights, not because they heard they could play dragon poker in the inn all weekend. So it's up to the older, experienced players to let them have that experience when it becomes available.

I would have to say that was worded perfectly and if they dont get it now they never will.

Nice summation Dave.  When I first entered KR, I ran to every confrontation.  Then I started walking.  Now I determine if my presence will really matter and sometimes just stroll to the site in case something unexpected occurred.  Its an evolution of attitude as well as relative strength.

  Thanks Charlie.  Just an FYI though, this is Jeff, Dave's GM out here at KanaraK  .

Gee I get mentioned in the same post as Balindor


Anyway I have only been LARPING for about five years now and each year I have more and more fun watching and helping the new players We have a few more this year for whom I have high hopes.  New enthusiams must be nurtured to grow, not blasted into oblivion by an undefeatable creation of someone's warped mind

Thanks Charlie, for helping me to get to know KR better.

Hope to see you in person again this year  earlier preferably

There will be room for you in Kaladonia, Dave.  Bring friends.

As a long time LARPer, and veteran of several games, of different styles, I can certainly see the point that the original author is making.  It is often hard and daunting for a new player to a game, especially a new LARPer in general to become involved.  I do not feel in Knight Realms' case that any mechanics need be changed, as we do fall under the 'Give everybody superpowers' category, if I were to attempt to classify it.

It does not take too long in most cases, with some fairly solid RP to be able to open a Higher List, and start raking in these 'super powers', either.  However, that being said, many low level characters, and players of said characters start their KR careers sitting and scratching their heads as to what to do next.

My personal strategy has always been, "Don't know what to do next?  Talk to someone!"  Perhaps I'm a special case.  Perhaps I have some OOG super power that I do not know about, but my character was nothing but a 4 body commoner, who couldn't hold a weapon, and barely read a book, but within my first twelve hours, my character had several friends, even more people 'keeping an eye on him', and some even that would watch his back.  

He also was immediately involved in mods that, as a Commoner who couldn't touch a weapon, cast a spell, or do anything but stare wild-eyed at the things going on around him, he probably shouldn't have been around, however, it was very much within the character's motivation and will to be there.  All of this done, with a voice that people to this day, strain themselves to hear.

Yes, I admit that I came to KR knowing a few people.  However, that said, all of those things I accomplished in twelve hours, I did so while purposefully NOT roleplaying with any of those people.  I don't consider any of this to be a 'superhuman' trait of mine.  I simply played my character, and let his own reactions dictate how, and who he talked to.

All of that out of the way, the question one probably should come away with from the article that Jeff posted is, "What can be done to get new players involved more?"  I'm of the personal opinion that KR already has all of the tools available right now. If anything, there perhaps could be brought to light some of the opportunities, in a more accessable place.  New Player Training could also include some time spent on giving some commonly known facts about the prominant organizations in town, such as the Mages' Guild, the Valosian Church and possibly even the Town Guard.  All are well known organizations that rarely turn away the request for a little assistance, and all would generally be starting points for new characters to 'get their foot in the door'.

However, I do acknowledge that I'm strange.

I think that one very important thing that veteran players with high level characters need to do is keep careful track of their stats. One trend that I have long noticed at KR is that when a character reaches about 15th level, he or she magically becomes anywhere from 15th - 35th level, depending on how excited the player is in a given moment, how awesome he or she thinks his or her fighting skills are, or how long it's been since the last time he or she marked off stuff that has been used.

Therein lies the biggest part of the power distortion at KR. Sam can tell you, if you search the database you will find precious few 30+ level characters that are currently active at the game. And yet is sure seems like there's an army of them some events. It's players who reach the point where they have just enough points and skills to lose track of them and not enough diligence in keeping a record and referring to it that are a big part of the problem.

So please, everyone, mark your cards early and often and keep it fair for everyone.