Religion in Larp

www.larpalliance.net/Resources/LARPandReligion.pdf

The above is documentation of a sociological research paper done in Southern California that attempted to discover the prevalence and barriers to Religious game play in Larp.

My personal view after reading the paper is that religion provides a necessary cosmological background for the game setting, but requires continuous reinforcement from staff and players to remain productive in game. Players have to internalize their religion and manifest it in various ways in the role play. Staff have to acknowledge the players use of religion and provide reinforcement for players to continue. That reinforcement does not have to be in the form of mechanical benefit, but could be in other more subtle ways.

I have no specific comments on the current state of religion in KR. I just thought the article was interesting and would love to see discussion here on how it relates to KR.

Everything that you put forth is exactly what I'd expect, and I am glad that, in my short time here, I have seen a lot of it, at least in the few less-populated IG faiths I've become acquainted with (Galmachis, Valos a little bit, Glomm, and Enax.) The larger-populated faiths, though, tend to be less so, as far as I've been able to see. I would like to see more religious immersion across the deities, honestly! Some of the religious lore is falling through the cracks because people aren't seizing it, as outlined in this paper. But that's just my two cents. I could go on in this conversation!

Breaking down religion in KR, it centers on the Cosmology of Light and Dark. (An alternative path was added to allow for Neutral play. Finally Visagalis was added which allowed one to be both Light and Dark while overall remaining Neutral.)

This Ethical conflict, the idea of Divine Opposition, should drive alot of RP, and I have heard in the past it did, but in a way that stifled the conflict rather than allow it to become a productive backdrop for the RP. The current solution, Writs, brings the two sides into proximity but does not allow the conflict to go beyond philosophical or social. There are problems with the implementation of Writs, but I see the sense of it. One side with more power cannot just wipe out the other. This allows us to explore the differences and debate our positions, rather than attack and defend ourselves constantly. Eventually more Writ bearers will openly discuss their religions, if the game does not punish the Clergy for allowing it.

There was an incident this event in April where a dark clergy jumped up when a Light Clergy asked for anyone else who wished to speak at Mass. Jed had to be interrupted and asked to stop as he was violating a Light Mass. Had we not, it might have had repercussions for the Altar, and Priests presiding over the Mass as has happened in past. That was a missed opportunity to RP, due to mechanics. Outside of a Mass we have little chance to engage in such debates with our opposing Clergy. Jed is always up for visits, but association often is seen as corruption, making such visits risky from a system mechanics stand point.

However, I concede alot of the onus is on players to adequately role play clergy. There is a bit of an issue with high or inconsistently applied rp requirements for both sides of the Light Dark line, but ultimately, we, the players, need to set the bar for that roleplay and maintain it.

The hardest thing in regards to RP of religion and being really true to it, is that it would lead to a lot of PvP. Writs allow "evil" clergy to survive in the world without killed outright.

Well, keep in mind, writs are being taken away by the current Baron. I have a friend who was applying for a writ last event, and he was told only the King can deal them out now. By the Baron. And Magnus.

I have heard of no writs being taken away. The King has always been the source of Writs. That system is not going to change. IC the idea is not everyone gets a Writ, you have to be loyal to the Kingdom and such.

This misunderstanding and fear frankly is why those with Writs still prefer anonymity. There is a paranoia that their Writ will be suddenly removed. That would be bad from a game standpoint on a couple levels. Personally, I don't believe it will happen, no matter what the Crusaders of the Light may want. (and for precisely that reason, there are Crusaders of the Light.) This is not to say that those with Writs would be annihilated if somehow those writs were revoked. But, sadly it would result in some ugly PvP and would be detrimental to the Larp overall.

Templar Aldric wrote: But, sadly it would result in some ugly PvP and would be detrimental to the Larp overall.

If PvP is done correctly, it can be of a great benefit to a LARP and can enhance the Roleplay experience of all those involved. However, PvP often turns into Griefing/Trolling (especially when there are no negative consequences) which, as you said, would be detrimental overall.

I would be interested in hearing about a way pvp would not be detrimental. I consider the social opposition a form of pvp, I suppose. But when it comes to actual strikes against pcs, I cant see that ending well and without some bad blood on both sides.

What would be interesting is trying to stay neutral with this conflict dividing the players. That will be tougher than being on one of the aligned sides.

The current plot is unifying, both Dark and Light need to work together. Xualla started that trend, and through Balfurious and into the Nulls, we have been having to set aside differences. However, both sides still are what they are, and the hostility remains, providing a backdrop of tension which is great for RP.

With the new development, we will likely explore what True Evil is, and that is going to be hard on the Light aligned. But, again, great for RP.

Being one of the few Neutral Representatives of Clergy in game at this point as a Brazenite (there are two of us Brazen clergy right now... Three Enax, I think and one or two Visigalan, to my knowledge). One would think the Neutrals would have an easier time of working with both sides and for the most part, we do but its not without problems of one sort or another.

I agree to a degree with both views on PvP- while some can be good to move things along, oft times, it can get and often does go too far... and that's where the problems lie. Where is the line and how does one walk it without going too far.

Dave is right- the two sides are being forced/encouraged to work together to allow the "universe" to survive. This, as in the past, can make for some rather interesting groups fighting against a common foe; tensions being what they are. Its good RP, as long as the players involved manage it right.

Templar Aldric wrote: I would be interested in hearing about a way pvp would not be detrimental. I consider the social opposition a form of pvp, I suppose. But when it comes to actual strikes against pcs, I cant see that ending well and without some bad blood on both sides.

www.knightrealms.com/forum/Off-Topic/83860-pvp-in-larp.html

JTinney wrote: Being one of the few Neutral Representatives of Clergy in game at this point as a Brazenite (there are two of us Brazen clergy right now... Three Enax, I think and one or two Visigalan, to my knowledge)

Don't forget the Chroncilerites.

Caldor Eirson wrote:

JTinney wrote: Being one of the few Neutral Representatives of Clergy in game at this point as a Brazenite (there are two of us Brazen clergy right now... Three Enax, I think and one or two Visigalan, to my knowledge)

Don't forget the Chroncilerites.

Oops! My bad. We have two, right?

((moved! since its off topic and more PVP oriented heh))

www.knightrealms.com/forum/Off-Topic/83860-pvp-in-larp.html

Continuing then the original topic, sans PvP, I would ask others for thoughts on what kind of roleplay appeals to them within the Religious theme? Or if the idea of religion is something you feel is not your thing and why?

My thoughts are that what appeals to me most is the aspect of preaching. I like the give and take and verbal fencing with player characters who often are Atheist or Agnostic. (Atheists are player characters that deny that the IC entities are Gods, just more powerful beings than we are. Agnostics in my context are those characters that acknowledge that the IC Gods exist, but dont care all that much about them.) My goal ultimately is to convert player characters to my point of view, leading them towards developing their character as a worshipper of a IC God. But, more often I educate new players about what the religions are, how they work and who they can speak with to learn more and that is just as satisfying.

I came in excited to be a dragon person.

Now, I'm excited to be religious, and I also happen to be a dragon person.

While I feel that Enaxians should be more persecuted, what with frequent attacks by Gaaldron, I am very, very happy with the state of religious roleplay. Getting the education from Aldric my first event was really helpful, but Chenjing still wasn't sold (though I was OOG somewhat intrigued).

I guess this doesn't really help the topic, but this is where I sit.

The way I play Nalick is that I try to lead by example, acting out his faith rather than giving a sermon. He introduces himself by his first name without a title and doesn't mention Andorra unless someone asks him about her--or they sneeze!

To me, I like religious rp for its ability to guide, support and help other players in their own rp. It creates community, and provides openings for both counseling and nurturing role play as well as deposit arguments and debates. This isn't just limited to the light either. Jed for example clearly drives and affects the rp of others.

At my first event, I witnessed a theological debate between a Galmachian and an Andorran, and I must say that it was one of the coolest parts of my first event, especially considering that my character had only just begun learning about religion.

Templar Aldric wrote: Continuing then the original topic, sans PvP, I would ask others for thoughts on what kind of roleplay appeals to them within the Religious theme? Or if the idea of religion is something you feel is not your thing and why?

Religious roleplay is right up there with one of the nice quick ways, in my opinion, you can add a challenge to your roleplay and a depth to your character (or in a very religious society like you said being atheist or agnostic!)

The enjoyable part for me is a few things.
-the ritual: acting of the prayer, creating a look and feel for the followers creates a ton of visual depth, and I sort of wish I saw a bit more of it
-the compulsion: tenants of a goddess can greatly scatter the expected reaction to the wind and creates unique situations. Not being too afraid of the odd choices in course of action have created some of my favorite rp scenes, light, dark, neutral, atheist, or whatever! But keeping it mind helps

-it's not god related, but it can relate to class roleplay. Being a druid and ritualizing the roleplay often feels very religious (for those who remember the winter of throwing blood heh) and can be a blast!

Cyndra Stagsblood wrote:
The enjoyable part for me is a few things.
-the ritual: acting of the prayer, creating a look and feel for the followers creates a ton of visual depth, and I sort of wish I saw a bit more of it
-the compulsion: tenants of a goddess can greatly scatter the expected reaction to the wind and creates unique situations. Not being too afraid of the odd choices in course of action have created some of my favorite rp scenes, light, dark, neutral, atheist, or whatever! But keeping it mind helps

Such wonderful points - I enjoy doing Mass so much because of the ritual and rp of it.
And yeah, getting to make the 'religious' choice instead of the choice that makes the most sense to me OOG is often the means to great RP with others.

On the addition of ritual, I would like to see more of it, but feel that you need a receptive audience for that. I can envision Latin phrases and use of ceremonial props but wonder if that might
lose people?

Among a ritual group I see that more useful. When doing divine rites, among Clergy, we can pull out the stops on the scene.

I'm going to use the term "Ceremony" instead of "Ritual".

Ceremony comes in two forms. Big C Ceremony and little c ceremony.

ceremony can be anything from how you set up the altar to repeated phrases or having those in attendance repeat phrases or take deep breaths. ceremony is something that you do out of habit To use some modern religion examples: making the sign of the cross, wearing a yarmulke, kneeling on a prayer mat facing mecca, lighting incense or candles, spritzing holy water, handling prayer beads, singing or playing music.

These little things can add so much depth to a character or a mass or a scene. They can convey in very small ways a HUGE amount of religious RP in a very short period of time.

Ceremony is like a Saint Astrid's Day auction for example or a high holy day scripted event. These are larger and harder to pull off but when used sparingly can also lend a huge amount of RP.

Don't worry about Ceremony for every mass, but put ceremony into every day, and your religion RP will go through the roof.

Please recall little c ceremony is required to use the skill mass.

The priest must dedicate half of the time of the mass delivering a sermon, and the remaining time performing religious ceremonies.

I do it at Midnight mass with the candle and the breathing and the 4 calls to life, etc.

You do it at Bar mass with the cookies, and the Q&A process and the various things you do.

My main issue with religion is this...

Atheism: Belief there is/are no god(s).
Agnosticsm: Does not know if there is/are god(s).

Our KR world, no one can doubt Gods exist. Why? We see their mediums (Priests & Clerics) perform miraculous, metaphysical things. Heal wounds, cure diseases, call forth light & other energy. Things that normal people cannot perform.

So what does this mean for our world or for a character growing up & living in our world?

If from birth you are told that there are beings out there with great power, who can channel that power to their faithful, & that when you die, you will go before them & get judged/sent to whatever afterlife you are supposed to get... what will that do to you? How will that affect your outlook on life?

I would think there would be tons of people who are baptized & be very fervent followers of whatever religion.

Frankly, I would think religion in our game would be playing a huge part of the plot all the time. Hence why we face "cultists" a lot or had many mods/plot points involving stopping "evil" deities from accomplishing something.

I would be interested to see something like the D&D FR Time of Troubles event in KR. FR has a huge pantheon of deities. So much so, it made sense that eventually all the deities would be going to war with each other over followers.

Time of Troubles

The Time of Troubles arc iirc, was when AO came and banished the Gods from heaven, making them take on Avatars on the Prime plane. That happened in KR sort of. The Gods walk Arawyn, unable to return to the heavens.

As for the role religion might play in plot, it has an effect already that most are unaware of. The culture should be more prevalent, but that is a player thing. Staff can't reinforce the setting, it's up to us to accept it and flesh it out.

As to plot, there are some FOIG things about the plot that show a Divine influence. Basically, the origins of the Gods and ultimate purpose is a big part of the game now. I want to explore that more, but there is a tendency to only react to plot as it happens.

Bladesworn wrote: My main issue with religion is this...

Atheism: Belief there is/are no god(s).
Agnosticsm: Does not know if there is/are god(s).

I think heavily in a settling like KR, the terms are different:

Atheism: Those beings you call gods aren't 'gods' to be worshiped, but merely a source of power, like the Weave for magic, Science for Alchemy, or Arawyn for Druidics. You don't deny they exist, just that that they should be worshiped.

Agnosticsm: Either a thought that you don't know if the gods should be followed or not OR you don't feel that a church should be supported.

Real world terms of Atheism and Agnosticism don't apply. You have to modify them to suit a setting where the Gods absolutely do exist.

That having been said, it's totally viable to be a Atheist or Agnostic in the KR setting. That us a great example of religious roleplay, by contrast. Your lack of faith in a setting with real supernatural beings can be a source of cool rp. Explore ideals that differ from yours. Be faithful when you, the player, is not or vice versa. I love speaking in character to someone without faith, or not supporting organized religion. The roleplay is challenging, and helps define my character as well as those he speaks with.

As someone who is pagan IRL, it's been fun to play a character to refuses to follow a religion. I was put on the spot in my second game by Aldric when I accidentally got sucked into bar mass when I had to ask a crew mate a question and I hadn't had a chance to actually decide on what rook's beliefs are, so I went with she didn't believe in following the gods. Of course then after I had to go back and sit and think of *why*, in a world where gods walk around, she wouldn't be religious, and went back and worked that into her character after the fact.

I think religion adds a super interesting addition to LARP, especially in a game like this where gods and religions are an active part of plot and being non-religious is an oddity it seems.

Templar Aldric wrote: Continuing then the original topic, sans PvP, I would ask others for thoughts on what kind of roleplay appeals to them within the Religious theme? Or if the idea of religion is something you feel is not your thing and why?

I have to say that as an agnostic and conoisseur of philosophy and the like outside of KR, Religion roleplay is definitely my thing in LARP. Putting myself in shoes where I can entertain thoughts of how things work in a way that is different than what I believe, than what little I know, than what much I think I know, sometimes. That is what I breathe for. My entire time last event, which was supposed to be spent completely separate from religion with an avid athiestic character was completely turned in the direction of Religious Immersion by one encounter.

What KR does great: The fact that an entire event can be spent on a detective search to determine whether not a Ghast that chased you is a God or not, and not having a satisfying answer by the end of it, and still having so much to learn. I saw no end in sight to the religious RP, from entry-level to clergy, and that's why I'm glad that I built a character that would travel up the entire slope. I wanted to relish every moment.

What KR does terribly: On multiple occasions, I have been told that I will be shuffled without any questions asked for pursuing a certain faith we all can name at this point. I really don't even feel comfortable mentioning it out of game, and physically dread the moment I told someone I trusted. Now many people know, because word spreads whether you want it or not, and whether you ask people multiple times not to talk about it or not, and it's become a running gag every time I see my KR friends out of game. How they're going to do it. When they're going to do it.

My character is agnostic right now, and I don't plan them to become clergy or followers of any God for a year AT LEAST, and I've already received an IG threat. Lux hasn't even heard of Malyc, practically!

And it has been ridiculous, really. And this is exactly the reason that there are basically no Malycites in-game. It's so bad that people have made literally identical custom Gods, just to avoid the name Malyc and the detrimental PVP that goes with it.

I think every facet of the game needs to be present for precisely the reasons Dave and others have highlighted: without the so-called "Social PvP," it's just unfulfilling to be on the heavy end of a see-saw. Especially when Malycites are supposed to be the ones rallying the Dark Followers to bring the nasty to Travance. Which has been happening in their absence, sure, but rarely resulting in any fruitful RP or PvP. And I specifically say "fruitful PvP," as there is such a thing, as we see in the PvP thread right now.

Long story short, there should be no reason to kill a character Out-of-Game. There should be no reason to eradicate a faction OOG. Absolutely none. All murderous intent should be 100% IG. It seems obvious, but really! There should be no reason to do anything but generate a character OOG. Because once you make the character, you do what the character knows and wants and nothing about what you know and want. Sure, perhaps you might take a second to figure out if your character can align with what you want to do, and finagle through those thoughts to get away from some RP you're not into. But getting OUT of RP should be the only reason OOG motivation comes into the game, because you should only go as deep as you are comfortable. If you make an OOG decision to get into RP or PvP, then you are, frankly, doing it wrong. Your character was practically possessed for a few seconds and ended up somewhere they normally wouldn't be.

That's just my two cents. That ended up being a lot more volatile than I wanted it to be, and for that, I sincerely apologize. I mean nothing personal to anyone, just as I'm sure they mean nothing personal to me. And sure, I'm not going to change my character trajectory based on what other people have said. But at some point, someone other than me might retire their character early along that trajectory, just to avoid the repercussions people have been so teasing them about. Nobody wants to get to the point in their character trajectory where everyone they meet wants to take all of their tags. There's no point in playing the character at all by that point. May's well just retire the character, rather than sit through 8 hours of death counts, hoping they won't take the next tag, or that someone will have mercy after your last tag is spent.

That's one thing though, KR is a safe place for exploring all sorts of morality, and religious concepts. Where the problem comes is each individual makes choices on how to react or act in regards to their chosen ethics or religion. Meta gaming is already against the rules, and constitutes cheating. But there are grey areas as you point out where things fall through the cracks. It's up to the players to police themselves, through education, in the case of newer players, or by getting marshals involved to mediate for others. The game is not so much the issue as is the culture of the game and we are all responsible for that.

This issue is the reason I wanted to start this thread. We as players need to be comfortable enough to be able to handle the opposition of religion, ethics or simply styles of rp, and that starts with each individual. At the end of the event we are all friends and that is not suspended during the game. We need to act like it.