Religion in Larp

I see religion as an important part of any game for me. For several reasons:
- It creates both community and conflict:
If they have the same religion as you, people are probably good people, but if they don't - maybe you mistrust or even fear them.
- It is something that gives your character some interesting limitations:
(I'm not saying "and advantages", because those are subtle at best - any kinds of clerical magic, from healing to turning undead od things like that are rare.)
Limitations challenge your character, and can put them in internal conflicts. For example: One of the most wide-spread in-game religions over here shuns all forms of magic, among other things. So on multiple occassions when I was wounded, I was conflicted to either accept magical healing or potentially die and/or being in pain. Or, once, before a large battle against cultists and demons, I feared dying, or being tortured by them, or losing my soul, so I ashamedly went to a mage to make me a protecting amulet. Surprisingly, we won the battle, I survived, and I decided to donate a lot of coin to the church and go on a pilgrimage afterwards. (Funnily enough, the amulet prop broke apart just after the battle, as if it had done the job and lost it's powers.)
- It helps with world-building:
Having deities in your world usually means that your world has both a creating myth that somehow, somewhat ties into in-game affairs, as well as an answer to what happens after death. Names of places and people will be inspired by them, as does the culture itself of those who follow those deities. One asceot of this is that it can establish a certain order in societies - it can determine how subservient or free-spirited people from there might be.
- It gives you something to do (generates play):
You might have a prayer for all sorts of occasions, you might have certain praying times you follow, you can go to mass and listen to sermons, or you can try to convert the heathens or burn witches (the latter, for OOG reasons, might not be a good idea, though). It's also a good money sink for characters that happen to earn a lot of money, by giving tithes and alms.


Oh, and I'm not exactly sure about the claim in the study about religious players tending to play with religion, and atheistic ones avoiding it. If anything, I found the opposite to be true. As an OOG atheist, it's great fun to play characters of varying degrees of religious fervor, and I think most of my characters follow some religion.

Religions over here are varied, often pantheistic, but sometimes monotheistic, with the example mentioned above being the latter and - only at a glance - similar to christianity, complete with precursor religion (judaism), orthodox and reformed variations (catholicism vs. protestantism), and an offshoot that denies some fundamental "truths" of this religion (islam). What I've rarely or never seen are deities that have a defined position on the good-evil-scale. The reason being, I guess, the question of why would you ever worship an openyl evil god.

Well, you can look at Hinduism for a real example of that last part, IRL. Or Norse Paganism. Or Zoroastrianism - Ahura Mazda has a good spirit and an evil spirit, both of which demanded the same amount of respect.

Oh, sure, as part of a pantheon/concept that is worshipped as a whole, it's not unusual to have the odd prankster/thieving/death/destroyer god or aspect - and it becomes more common with increasing number of deities in it. Because if you have a god dedicated to peace and healing, you got to have gods of mischief and murder as well. You could even argue that Christianity has its own evil "god" in it's "pantheon" - who, as we all know, you start worshipping if you play too much D&D. Or listen to rock music. Or read Harry Potter.

What I meant was worshipping a clearly evil deity exclusively that just "happens" to share the same cosmology with others. In that case I think most or all people would rather turn to those gods that don't require your offspring offered in sacrifice or torturing innocents all day to mayyyybe make the wheat grow better.

Take Llolth in the Forgotten Realms, for example. This sort of thing is very common in worlds in which good and evil are not so much just words used to evaluate our deeds, but rather something almost like a physical attribute or party membership that guides and defines all your actions.

Well, at least in KR, I feel that the Dark Pantheon facilitates Aspects of the world that are necessary, but not necessarily classically idealized. Like Destruction. One normally thinks destruction to be wasteful, until you take a closer look: Destruction of a living plant is necessary in order to harvest. When you look at it that way, and embrace the Good that comes from the perceived Evil, it is easy to respect, and even worship, deities dealing with Dark concepts. But even that may be argued as not worshipping an inherently Evil God.

Speaking as a player only (and not a staff member) I would love to see the Pantheon at KR morph into a more Roman / Greek pantheon style where any character can worship of any of the gods ... some of them may be "darker" or "lighter" and there might be stigma associated with making offerings to a "darker" god but it wouldn't be considered illegal by the state and you wouldn't be hunted down for it.

OOG I was raised Roman Catholic and did the whole confirmation thing. But since college I have met and made friends with many Pagan friends, several Jewish friends and a few Muslim friends and I have read or researched many religions. For my current PC, Gunnar, I have been studying concepts of Shamanism as well as Pagan concepts to try to play his philosophies more in that direction. So far I think it is working and I am enjoying the difference in thought process that engenders conversations between people. If you read the recent "Good versus Evil" thread that I started you will (I hope) notice a lot of that difference coming out between Gunnar and Aldric -- it is entirely a philosophical argument (with a bit of linguistics thrown in) and I think it was amazing.

I mean -- I was excited while I was writing each response and excited to read each counter post. How cool is that?

I would love to see a situation in which a terrible plague befalls the land and the towns people put together offerings to one of the "darker" gods to try to appease them and nobody flips out and tries to murder them.

Sorry if this was long winded. Again, this is just my opinion as a player of KR.

Gunnar Gunnarson wrote: Speaking as a player only (and not a staff member) I would love to see the Pantheon at KR morph into a more Roman / Greek pantheon style where any character can worship of any of the gods ... some of them may be "darker" or "lighter" and there might be stigma associated with making offerings to a "darker" god but it wouldn't be considered illegal by the state and you wouldn't be hunted down for it.

Speaking as a player, and in particular one who plays clergy, I would also love to see this.

Pantheism is my thing, I too was born, raised and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, but I have since explored religions as a hobby of sorts. For a time I practiced Wicca, but one thing I have found is that religions never seem to fill the entire bill by themselves. There are pieces missing in every dogma.

Roman Catholicism for example, gets community and ritual and hits the right notes spiritually. But, for me, it misses on the spontaneous expression of joy of the Divine that some other religions focus on. Even Baptists get it closer. Hinduism hits the notes of ritual, and the spiritual framework is fascinating. Shintoism, combines the natural world with deified spirits, and its stories are fascinating. If we could distill all of the philosophy and history, rites and ceremonies, religious ecstasy and natural experiences into one religion, that would be Truth for me.

In Larp we have a chance to try to combine the best (and worst) of all religions we have experience with, into one package. It must fit the setting of course, but inside that boundary we can create something that honors all of the religious and spiritual beliefs we find fascinating in real life. Larp is at its heart a self exploration and there is nothing more needed to explore than this side of ourselves, the mystical and spiritual.

In KR, we have a classic, Good vs. Evil scenario. The pendulum has swung back and forth in the two decades long history of this game. Currently we are at a point where the pendulum is in center, but with memories of a time when the pendulum swung towards Good. Will it swing towards Evil? That is the Drama of the game, and the Conflict of the two sides pulling the pendulum to their advantage. There seems little room, as it currently stands, for coexistence, though with the addition of Writs, a tense truce has been called. I don't see that lasting, but more from the limitations it places on both sides.

If all Deities were allowed to be worshiped, it may water down the experience. If there were no negative aspects to be a Dark Clergy, that may lose players who have no way then to explore the forbidden? On the other hand, if there were no downsides to being a Dark Clergy, who would want to place themselves under the much more rigorous rules that the Light Clergy must adhere to. The Dark Clergy would go from being a close knit community of rebels to having to deal with a much greater breadth of players, for good and especially for ill. I am not sure the Dark side would be made better for it.

It is a struggle now to get people interested in the Divine roleplay, think of what may happen when the essential struggle between Good and Evil is no longer a thing. I am concerned that Religion would lose its power for drama and conflict and Clergy would become just another casting class.

As someone who is highly interested in religious roleplay, I have to say that I feel as though the harshness of the laws against the worshipers of Dark forces has made me disinterested in the concept of worshiping a Dark god, specifically being a priest of one. If I can't say a prayer without immediately being a criminal, I don't see all too much of a point for myself. That said, I don't know how hard it would be to get a Writ, but I can't imagine it being incredibly easy, especially for a Malycite, and I can't think of many ways to play a Malycite priest without immediately exposing myself (if I wanted the roleplay to be good as a Malycite, I mean). I feel like that option for a character is just completely thrown out the window because he wouldn't be able to do all too much. I wouldn't expect it to be like "Alright, y'all have fun worshiping Malyc and the like, we won't bother ya none", but I feel as though the consequences for even considering to worship a Dark force make it difficult to consider.

On the other hand, my character Ergos is fairly interested in Andorra, and may follow a path to worship her, and from what I've seen of the Light clergy, it sounds pretty awesome to be a part of a religion like that. There, of course, are a number of duties and potentially stifling tenets that come to worshiping a Light force, but if your character is meant for that god, then it turns into a great experience where these duties and tenets add magnificently to the roleplay. I would love to see Dark clergy be able to flourish like Light clergy in this regard; not as to be big, but to be well-off enough so that they wouldn't need a Writ to be able to step into the inn without being attacked.

I would love to see Dark clergy be able to flourish like Light clergy in this regard; not as to be big, but to be well-off enough so that they wouldn't need a Writ to be able to step into the inn without being attacked.

I don't think anyone wants to see the Dark Dieties as accepted. Players who play Dark Clergy, please chime in on that. It also must be said that a certain suspension of disbelief has to occur in Larping, and openly accepting Gods of Evil in polite society might not be able to pass that test. Sure we have magic fireballs being thrown around, but who in their right mind allows someone worshipping disease, corruption and murder to just go walking free in your settlement? (Yes we can argue that the Dark Gods aren't necessarily doing that, but stay on topic. )

The forbidden nature of their worship and secrecy it entails is often part of their allure, in my opinion. The Writs offer a chance to play the Clergy without being hunted down, but it should never be something given out freely. That would water down the edge of playing the character.

Templar Aldric wrote: It is a struggle now to get people interested in the Divine roleplay, think of what may happen when the essential struggle between Good and Evil is no longer a thing. I am concerned that Religion would lose its power for drama and conflict and Clergy would become just another casting class.

This might be a stupid question - but shouldn't the fact that these beings run the universe (or the world, at least) warrant worship in any case - no matter whether they are in a struggle with their evil counterparts or not? To, you know, ask them to make the crops grow, to not die in battle and to find love and all that?

I'm not saying that they should be accepted by any means, and I completely agree with you that worshipers of Dark powers tend not to be the best of people; I'm just saying that if the worshiper of a Dark god isn't bringing any harm to innocents, I feel as though they should not be treated as though they are immediately. Obviously, distrust of people worshiping the acts of aggression and suffering and destruction would be the case, but I feel as though an outright ban on these individuals makes it hard for the pendulum to not swing to the Light side of things. I've met two Galmachians and one Agauran as Ergos, and no worshippers of the Dark gods as Haz Polzin (as far as I know), but everywhere I look I see a member of the Light clergy. I'm not saying its a bad thing to have the Light outweigh the Dark, but I feel it's highly disproportionate at KR. Again, this is just a newer player's outlook so I could be totally off the mark with this information, but I'm one who sees Darkness as an equally important role as Light in a place like Travance, and I personally don't see that happening.

This might be a stupid question - but shouldn't the fact that these beings run the universe (or the world, at least) warrant worship in any case - no matter whether they are in a struggle with their evil counterparts or not? To, you know, ask them to make the crops grow, to not die in battle and to find love and all that?

Its not a stupid question and in the context of KR, deities do warrant worship, though we dont conceive of them as having the effect of making crops grow or all that. The bit I was concerned about is normalizing all religions might take away from the role play. Instead of Black and White everything becomes Grey.

I think you're right. In my experience, having different religions not getting along with each other usually generates more role play than having a pantheon that's one big happy family. Most religions benefit from having some sort of antagonist - either another deity, or possibly some sort of demonic counterpart.

I guess a question might be, though, whether the persecution by law is neccessary to sustain this, or if "social repercussions" (you won't get served in the tavern, prices for everything will be inexplicably higher for you, every good person shuns you, etc.) might already be enough. It could lead to more opportunities for interesting role play (since any worshipper of an evil god is not just attacked on sight)...or maybe to more PvP, because the evil worshippers will stop being secretive and start being "out there", basically painting a big target on themselves.

I couldn't possibly tell, of course.

In practice the Evil Clergy are not persecuted in KR as you describe. Back in the game's history that was another story, executions, witch hunts (not figurative, literal) and the like were once the norm. One group is pretty much brought up as single handedly being responsible for it, but in truth the situation of the game at the time was as much responsible for it as they were. The Light Church once had an Inquisition actively hunting down dark worshipers, demons, and all manner of supernaturals. That was ended several years ago to prevent the impact on roleplay for those wanting to play Dark characters.

Now in KR, Writs serve as legal amnesty for dark clergy, to include use of prayers. The Light Church of course hates this, but is unable to do anything about it. PvP between Light and Dark is not physical anymore but social, theological. There are rare encounters between the two sides, and with the plot being what it is, we are forced to work together. This is not to say that we are no longer persecuting NPCs, PvE against the Dark Clergy NPCs continues, as does PvE against Light Clergy NPCs. There is still the sense of being at War. But, Players are a different matter, by design and for the reasons we have outlined. Role Play would suffer if that were not so.

Templar Aldric wrote: If all Deities were allowed to be worshiped, it may water down the experience. If there were no negative aspects to be a Dark Clergy, that may lose players who have no way then to explore the forbidden? On the other hand, if there were no downsides to being a Dark Clergy, who would want to place themselves under the much more rigorous rules that the Light Clergy must adhere to. The Dark Clergy would go from being a close knit community of rebels to having to deal with a much greater breadth of players, for good and especially for ill. I am not sure the Dark side would be made better for it.

It is a struggle now to get people interested in the Divine roleplay, think of what may happen when the essential struggle between Good and Evil is no longer a thing. I am concerned that Religion would lose its power for drama and conflict and Clergy would become just another casting class.

And this is precisely what gets me into Religion in KR. There are legitimate reasons to worship every God IG... Well, most (F Malyc Complex). At least for now, anyway. There is a clear temptation from the Dark, but not just a temptation. Galmachis, for example, governs the sanctity of the body, and thus demands respect in funeral rites. Aguara has recently been hailed as the harbinger of life's greatest lessons: the ones we learn through mistakes, through pain, and through suffering. And Glomm teaches us that all men and all women can be swayed; no matter how stubborn or otherwise disposed they may be, there is always some way to win them over in favor of a better option.

And I think that's precisely WHY the Dark pantheon should continue to be looked down upon, to be illicit, to be misunderstood. Because the challenge the Dark Clergy must continue to take on is to prove the merit of the Dark Gods. To carry the mantle. To polarize. To oppose and To offer balance.

In a way, we already have a Greco-Roman Pantheon. The only difference is that PCs can respect many gods, but can only commit themselves to one cult. Whereas Greeks and Romans could openly praise and call upon the favors of any and all of the gods, even in the course of a single day.

Honestly, at first, I didn't like the fact that you had to choose. But after seeing how it worked out in-game, I now prefer the Servant and Follower model. Because you really can respect all of the gods in their own right, even gods opposing your own. But you can align with the God idealizing the Aspects your character most cares about. And that is wonderful.

DennisS wrote:

Templar Aldric wrote: It is a struggle now to get people interested in the Divine roleplay, think of what may happen when the essential struggle between Good and Evil is no longer a thing. I am concerned that Religion would lose its power for drama and conflict and Clergy would become just another casting class.

This might be a stupid question - but shouldn't the fact that these beings run the universe (or the world, at least) warrant worship in any case - no matter whether they are in a struggle with their evil counterparts or not? To, you know, ask them to make the crops grow, to not die in battle and to find love and all that?

Also, keep in mind (you wouldn't necessarily know this, as a new player) The Gods don't really run the world, in any way. At all. If anyone does, that is down by beings far above, or even far below the Gods. The Gods, however, serve as Idols to aspire to. They have ascended to their place as embodiments of the elemental Aspects of the world. They personify those aspects, and interact accordingly, opposing and supporting one another accordingly.

That is not to say that one cannot call upon Gaia for a good harvest. One can do so. But it is more by the action of praying to Gaia that a good harvest is attained, rather than by Gaia's action herself. Even then, a Druid would probably ensure a good harvest in the absence of Gaia's help, better than would an Average Joe praying to Gaia.

Ah, I see.

Just out of interest (unless it's FOIG): What being, or thing, or place is it that provides the "energy" for a prayer like this to work (making the plants grow better)? Is it the gods or something else?

It's background stuff, so no problem. Druids have a specific prayer called Germinate that does that. That is the thing about including Druids and Gods, they have to split things up. Gaians come closer to what you describe though they focus on Life itself.

Mhh, i think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't asking what spell/prayer hass this specific effect. What I meant was this:

With magic-users, it's very common to say that they draw their energy ("mana", or whatever you want to call it) either from themselves (they generate it over time) or from their surroundings (it's generated by the world, or someting in the world, and they just have the ability to collect it). And there's certainly many variations on this.

My question is - in KR, what is the equivalent "energy source" for clerics, and how is it accessed. Do deities grant them power up front, and through prayers they focus them into some effect, or do they just call upon these deities for effects to happen by prayer, and the deities affect the world directly and on their own? And do deities just have these powers, or do they have to draw them from external source?

Sorry if this is getting a bit off-topic maybe.

No its not a bad discussion for the topic. Some of it verges on FOIG though.

Basically, there are different systems of magic. The Weave is a conduit of energy that connects the prime plane to the Astral realms. Each Element, or Sphere of magic has its own strand of Weave; likewise Divine energy and Druidic, have their own.

Further breaking it down are the Domains of Divine, each represent an Aspect of Divine energy that specific Gods are able to channel. Each God has its own unique Aspect, and shares two others with other Gods. (Except Visagalis who is the special snowflake)

As to the process of drawing on that energy its something left vague. We have speculated that the flow of Divine energy is a two way affair, our worship to specific Gods empowers the Divine strand, and the Weave in general. Gods are the guardians of their Aspects, gatekeepers kinda, and through focus on that God, Clergy are able to channel the energy of their Aspects to perform Divine miracles (prayers).

The Deities have changed Aspects or occasionally different Gods have risen that take on Aspects vacated by their former holder. The Aspects seem to be permanent, while the Gods can sometimes change.

So to sum up, its an external and eternal source of Divine energy which Gods ascend to become the caretakers for, and Clergy are assistants to the Gods in harvesting and managing the energy on Arawyn. Note, this is all my opinion, its left for people to research IC to figure out specifics.

I understand that Religious RP ads incredible depth and potential for delicious narrative conflict as well as a driving force for character motivations but one thing I currently really appreciate about the system at KR is that most IG religious ceremonies and deep religious RP is optional.

Not to get too off topic or personal but I consider KR and other such Fantasy LARPs a fun escape and, having grown up in an extremely religiously-focused insular community which I sacrificed much to leave, I really want very little to do with religious RP because I sometimes find it very uncomfortable. The more fantastical elements are totally fine (speaking with angels, appearances of gods, glowing lights, etc) but the elements that are closer to real-world religious ceremonies (benedictions, blessings, etc) sometimes leave me feeling very squirmy. And the great thing about these IG religious ceremonies at KR? I can just remove myself and go enjoy another aspect of the game if I feel off.

I currently really appreciate the take-it or leave-it surface aspect of religion in KR. Sure, it's there under the hood if you'd like to delve deeper to explore it and the narrative richness it brings but all PCs are not necessarily required to attend masses. The only "requirement" I can think of is the pre-feast benediction but there is no IG punishment for a character refusing to bow her head. The Nobility does not push a particular religion on any PCs and there is no pressure to participate if you don't want to.

It is and will remain optional to participate, no matter how many times I ask you IC.

I dont think anyone wants to annoy people or make them uncomfortable with their RP. It is something to consider when preaching, that some people are going to say no, and you need to respect that. Is that something I always do? No. I get caught up in the moment and might get carried away. However, it is something I need to keep in mind, and certainly if I am making you uncomfortable, don't be afraid to let me know.

Last feast being St. Astrid's day I asked people to greet and acknowledge their neighbor at Benediction. Thinking back on it, did that make people uncomfortable? If it did I can cross that one off the list to do again. All of my benedictions (and most of my Masses) are Ad Libbed so planning is non existent. I go with the flow at the time. But, a heads up will make sure I don't cross anyone's boundaries.

Interesting - thanks for the elaborate answer!

I usually like to read up on these background things before joining a game to get a better feel for the universe it takes place in.

David, just reassuring you that you're doing a great job. Including the Feast benedictions and asking my PC repeatedly to consider a faith. I'll PM you and talk if ever there is an issue but I think you're doing A+ Valosian RP and keep going as you're going. The doors aren't bolted during feast. No one's held in there. No one is punished IG for not fully participating. It's a nice touch.

I also second Kat's assertion, and present myself as testament. I felt comfortable bringing two agnostic characters into the game, and was never uncomfortable with that choice at any point in my stay.

Honestly, I feel that religious characters SHOULD put a little bit more pressure in, sometimes, though, because I came into the game as Guo Liang fully expecting having to defend his lack of faith, and was never even approached about it. Which I suppose is nice, but I'd hoped it to have at least served as a talking point. One of the myriad of reasons I tabled Liang for now.

That pressure should be limited to character conversation, rather than to actual ramifications, as Kat warns against, however.

What - no baptisms at swordpoint?

I guess we're just very used to the concept of live and let live in religious matters that pushing someone to take on (or relinquish) a faith is so unthinkable to some that they have a problem with acting out sth. like this in-game, seeing it instinctively as a form of gameplay that will make people uncomfortable. Especially since it seems the typical LARPing crowd tends to not be too mainstream about their religious views.

Looking at the PvP thread - this might equally be something that could be communicated out-of-game first, so those who want this can be pestered by clerics as much as they want.
(In my case - I'd say "bring it on", but I'll probably be very obviously a follower of Gaia)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are actual IG repercussions for baptizing someone against their will, and repercussions for not being truthful in one's alleged wish to be baptized.

Beats me what those are though, so FOIG on those.

That, to me, is a sort of keystone to Religious RP.

Lux wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are actual IG repercussions for baptizing someone against their will, and repercussions for not being truthful in one's alleged wish to be baptized.

There definitely is.

I was kidding, of course. I already read up on the consequences for things like that (being untruthful would be 100 divine damage, if i recall correctly) - it's in the core rules.

That, to me, is a sort of keystone to Religious RP.

The impossibility of getting babtized under false pretenses?

I'm not questioning at all why you would choose to handle it the way it is handled at KR, I'm just saying I had some fun playing around with this in the past. One of my traders once got babtized just because he wanted to get in on the production and sale of religious relics - which worked. Later, he almost died from a wound, and I let him have a vision of a saint in his fever dreams, and I made him became a devout follower, continuously giving plenty of coin to the church.
Also, there were these norse guys getting babtized to scam the clergy out of free babtizing shirts...some of them more than once. It was hilarious, the priest's player didn't realize it at all.

Allow me to clarify, I curtailed my thought early (It's rather late here, and I shouldn't be up.) I meant religious RP in our context.

Though those are hilarious. Even the Trader could conceivably get baptized in that fashion, though, I think, at least by that short description. You don't need to necessarily be a Saint to be baptized, all you need is a legitimate interest and devotion to the church. If that devotion is the will to peddle holy symbols, than so be it!

Now if a Galmachian disguised themself as a Gaian follower hoping to be baptized to Servant status... THEN is when Gaia (And/or Galmachis, for that matter) will strike them down for their infidelity.