On the matter of the library

I do not know. Is he? I would most definitely like to know.

The reason for my question being, much of this conversation has been the logic and suspicious intelligence of Father Brax...but what if this other man is a barbarian? If he is I think we must truly reconsider this situation.  

Fr. Edwin... I am no expert in Economics.  You are correct.  However, from my time as a caravan guard & mercenary, I like to think I have a basic idea of what constitutes a business or at least a trade or transaction.  I offered a service.  Merchants paid me for the service.  Sometimes I had to fight, sometimes I did nothing at all.  I offered something, & someone gave me payment for it.

You offered gold to Scholars for their assistance so your research would go faster. You offered payment for their time & service.  Is that not a business transaction?  Now you can say that the gold offered was to recompense them for their time & they weren't obligated to take it.  However, by offering the gold, you acknowledge their time is valuable or at least their efforts were worth something. Whether your final goal was to make a profit or not doesn't matter.  No one said your business had to make a profit or that your goal was to increase your revenue.

If you are against the library becoming a private, mercantile business... then turn your energy & passion toward making sure it doesn't become one.  If you're against the library being managed by the Nobility then turn your energy & passion towards that.  If you wish to "leave the operation and maintenance of the library to the librarian", you should go about in making sure that remains status quo.  I don't lean in any direction for the library or other new libraries.  Whether they are run by the government or by the merchants, is not my business.  I follow the lead of my Lords & Ladies.

Brax,

Your understanding reinforces why the barbarian hordes are nomadic or tribal at best. Your people are excellent warriors, possibly even tacticians and generals, but economics seems to escape you. I will give you an example from the current economic climate in Travance to demonstrate how you are wrong:

Ming Na has opened an inn, the Bloody Stump, to rival the Dragon's Claw. By your reasoning, his inn is redundant and hurts the development of the Travancian economy. If you asked Ming Na, he could tell you exactly how wrong you are in that regard, him being the foremost expert in Travancian mercantile development. The Bloody Stump has been a roaring success and has increased the gold flowing through the economy by an order of magnitude.

This is just one of your arguments that I've chosen to dispute. There are others that I'm sure Lois will get to.

Moira was insinuating that perhaps in your generosity as a Priest of the Light, you might offer your services gratis to those in need. You then insinuated that her opinion was worthless and she should keep it to herself. You have no standing in Travance that would give you leave to talk to her thus, she is as free to voice her opinion within the bounds of the law as you are.

Lastly, what is a High Chieftain doing cavorting around Travance? Shouldn't you be governing your people? I schedule my rounds of Drega'mire so that I am close to the Proper for the feast. I don't have any idea how many days you must spend getting to and from wherever your tribe hails without the aid of magical transportation.

Lord Abendroth

Lord Abendroth,
   I will not argue that the bloody stump has increased the economy of the barony immensely. I do attest that the bloody stump and the dragons claw inn are vastly different entities than a library.
 And in that is where I see the problem with having more than one.
I will reiterate that while I will not in any way stop anyone who wishes to open a library from doing so. I think it is unwise and the resources for it could be put to better use else where.
   If that is what Moirya was suggesting it went over my head. If that was what she was suggesting then my generosity as a priest of the light is in so much that I would be fair and overly reasonable with those whom I was escorting on said sojourn. If only I was as financially fruitful as others in the barony I might be able to offer my services as a body guard gratis. Alas I am not and can not. I did not mean to insinuate that her opinion was worthless. If that is how my words were taken then for that misunderstanding and poor communication I apologize.  I was concerned that she was insinuating my ability as a warrior was less than what it is or that I claim it to be. As my grandfather said "To question the sword in my hand is to question me as a Man." something up of which I shall not put. Moreover it seemed as though her words were only for the purpose of stirring the pot... To poke the hornets nest as it were. Which is where my commentary on her refraining from speaking if she had nothing constructive to say came from. Again if that was not her intention then I apologize for seeing it as such and responding as I did.
   As for what I am doing here. It was my fathers dying command that I see the world and learn of it such that I could be a better leader for My people. For the short summer I have excellent family and council of elders to see to the tribe whilst I am away. And I have scheduled my time such that I leave after the days become too long for the frost giants and undead to attack and I return before they shorten to such a time that the earths split open  and the ice bridge forms from the cold and dark after besets my people and we must be on guard against that which looms in the long night. As for actual time of travel it takes longer than you have stated for me to travel from and return to my people I however have as I said excellent trust worthy family and council of elders to guide My people while I am away and in case of dire emergency I have a way of returning to them within days or less if need without the use of sorcery.

I do however deeply thank you and appreciate your concern for my people. I must say you are one of those who have softened my heart to magic turning it from a loathing detestation to a tolerance. And for that I thank you.

Thank you Lord Abendroth, as you said above.. that is indeed what I was implying. I was simply saying that if Brax felt his skills were being unfairly taken advantage of then perhaps he should not be so generous with his assistance in the future. My words were not to be interpreted with the ill will that was attributed to them.

Also, I am of the opinion that there is nothing more of the productive or constructive nature that may be gleaned from overwhelming the posting board but of course, every citizen of Travance has the right to pen their thoughts and so I wish you all the best in your respective arguments.

A question of my lineage has been raised.

and while i do not think this matter important i would ask if anyone out there finds him or herself limited by their blood in their veins. who my grandfather was has only so much bearing on what it is i decide to do with my life as i choose.

There are certainly parts of me that are barbarian. I wear camouflage on my face, and feathers upon my shoulders. Perhaps these are instead the trappings of a man who understands the arts of camouflage, and the teachings of the woods?

Personally i like the statement. it appeals to my unusual sense of humor there is nothing more peculiar than seeing an old fellow dressed as i and instead of being greeted by a perplexing riddle i offer you Londewinian coffee.

So i choose to instead address what i feel is relevant. The stereotype is that Barbarians abhor magic. I bare no such abhoration.

Bearing in mind that i am sane and do not with to die or unleash unspeakable evils upon Travance, and understand the concept of everything in moderation; I am a student of as many philosophies as i can sink my teeth into, and do not feel any should be excluded in the quest for knowledge and understanding.

Put your boots/money/sword/stuffed bunny where your mouth is, gentlemen.

Lois, I will happily be your itinerant bodyguard for free. You know where I live.

Seeing how the conversation has turned to something I know a little thing or to about, I would be happy to teach some of you who are in need of education in the art of economic climate on this side of the Rift. One must be willing.....& able to take advice to grow, failure of that will lead only to failure of any venture you may undertake. The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.

I along with Ming Na would indeed be glad to teach some of you on the vast studies of economics and the strategies that drive it. As a long time business owner in Travance nothing makes me happier the good competition, it is what controls our various markets and makes for better products, deals, and profit of course. It takes one many moons to become a master of trade, education, and economics, I can only hope Ming, Myself, and the other business owners and private traders of Travance can make the hardships of life a little better. 

Concerning economics, one can always go to the library and read a manuscript concerning Economics in Travance if one cannot find a suitable teacher at a convenient time. 

            Correct me if I'm wrong, this argument first started between two people about a matter that occurred earlier than the date of this conversation. We have many scholars and priests here to help out with the matter. The fact that people with little relevance to the creation of knowledge or who in particular deal with the Libary's problems daily are joining this huge mess of a conversation as if they know fully of this. I can attest to the fact that books cost money, for it is not the book itself that is not valuable but the knowledge that is spreads. On the matter of building a second library, I find it completely pointless for the Library we currently have is a very fine one and therefore construction of another library would be useless as people already so fondly visit this one. As to the safety of it through the means of sorcery, I find it necessary that clergy of a dark god or professions that would use the knowledge contained in the library for ill use to be magically rejected from the Church. I am a dear friend of Brax for he has baptized me to Galladel and I know first hand that he is a well experienced fighter and has grown and studied more in knowledge than some people in Travance. Lois Maxwell, I do your point of view but with your responses, it starts to make me beleive that you are scolding Father Brax rather harshly through the negativity put into your contradictions against him. I do find it rather offensive. Even with that being said I do agree with some of your points. But in some of your posts you rather unclearly state that you're more intelligent than some other people. You said rather harshly to Father Brax that you were a Scholar and Scribe in a strong sense of sarcasm. I please do humbly wish all of this verbal attacking of people of not trained to pertain with the Library's matters. Thank you. 

Thank you Squire Silverbow for the voice of reason.  We will attend to your grammar in the future, but I understand the haste of your penning a response.

Goodness, are we still on about this? Doesn't anyone have any work to do?

Squire Silverbow, your allegiance to your friend is commendable. I am sorry that I offended you by disagreeing with Father Brax, but I will not change my stance based solely on your friendship with him. Furthermore, after I agreed with Father Brax that his statements were cerebrally obtuse, I had nothing further to say to him. Perhaps as his friend you can inform him as to the actual meaning of the phrase he used to describe his arguments?

Everything else I wrote was more of a general address to those following the debate. As no one had come back with any real counterpoints - beyond Brax himself, who did nothing except directly contradict what he wrote earlier - I thought that either no one had any major disagreements, or that no one particularly cared about the matter any longer.

There is one point that I will make with additional emphasis, however. Books cost money. Quite a bit, in fact. Yes, we can all wax philosophical about the importance and value of information, but the simple truth is a tome of, for instance, the complete path of the scholar can cost up to 85 gold in materials alone. This is not including the countless hours of work put into it. Manuscripts are much cheaper, of course, but they still take time and most scholars are unlikely to create more than seven or eight of them in a year.

No one has argued that information in general should not be made available to the people of Travance, as it is useful and important. No one has argued that the physical defence of the town is not equally important. Yet, no one stands up and demands that smiths hand over all their materials and work hour upon hour by the forge without compensation. We return, then, to the original question: why is it so terrible to try and recoup some of the losses incurred when making books? Why did the people of Travance pour forth with such an outcry? Could it truly be that the people of Travance believe that everyone has an equal say, and information should be freely and equally accessible to all? I would welcome further debate on the matter in person, perhaps at the upcoming festival.

However, if you feel I have been "unclearly stating" that I am more intelligent than others, let me clearly state that if I wanted to make such a proclamation, I would do so outright and not simply imply it. Also, if I was scolding someone, I would use my yardstick. What I will say, in no uncertain terms, is that in general scholars are more qualified to deal with issues concerning libraries, and warriors are more qualified to deal with infestations of forest trolls. Though - if I may be allowed a small joke at my expense - I might become adept at dealing with forest trolls if it was not currently illegal for we Londwynians to wield axes.

-Lois

It is true that all works in the library, save those I looted from Roonfax Manor, cost money.  Even those had an associated cost.  I am fortunate in that I have been blessed with the ability to earn gold, and thus have no need to worry about the cost of the books I donate to the librry.  For those to whom the expense must be weighed, it should be realized that the Count recognizes such service and will duly note it.  In his absence I will inform him of all donations and make certain the service to the Count and Barony is duly noted.  It might not be coin, but it is just as valuable in its own way.

Old Romani Proverb "One fool tangles and ten wise men cannot untangle."

                  Lois, I'm sorry. I thought about you wrote and I wanted to apologize. I didn't realize a book could cost so much. I thought that the price was based on the quality of the knowledge preserved inside. I do humbly apologize if I caused some harsh feelings in the statements of my missive. I just don't want any negative feelings lingering about us for the remainder of our lives. Thank you for explaining, more in detail, what you meant.

The typical library book costs between  10 and 29 gold for materials, plus the time tken to produce.  Codices and tomes cost considerably more.  The Schjolar's Tome is currently the most expensive book in the collection.

                      I wouldn't have known. I'm not really following the procedures of making a book nor do I have the knowledge of how to make one correctly with important information.

Let me further clarify - a typical 16-24 page manuscript, leather bound written on parchment will cost around 20 gold.  The same book, using bound paper and a non-leather cover, will cost about half of that.  Elaborate books, such as leather bound Tomes of several hundred pages, can cost upwards of 200 gold.

The above prices are just for the intrinsic value of the material and do not take the time and inks into account to actually fill the work.