Rules Update: Master Warrior

Based off the trait system you could deflect and as such repel with a bow in hand as they are weapons. That being said obviously someone should never attempt to block an attack with their bow for real.

So this old ruling is no longer correct in regards to using coreless weapons with melee/weapon-based tag defenses?

www.knightrealms.com/forums/index.php?to...07.msg15432#msg15432

Based off the current written rule yes that is out dated. If Jon or James feels this isn't valid we'll likely update the rule to include a melee descriptor somewhere.

Is there a maximum to the damage that can be dealt by Devastating Blow?  If not, it would be possible (for Skorpor) to deal more damage with Devastating Blow than Slay.

Skorpor isn't getting DS, so no worries there. But that being said there is no cap and this is intended. Overall 2 handed weapons are left behind to favor sword and board and master florentine so we wanted to give them a very powerful skill to encourage more 2H use.

I don't think I've ever actually had to know this, but...

Slay is a hand-specific skill, but it has a cap. Are you allowed:

A.: Only the maximum given in the skill (3) and they must all be on one hand?
B.: Only the maximum given in the skill but they may be on either hand, as long as you can wield an appropriate weapon in your off-hand?
C.: Additional purchases of the skill (for a total of 3 RH and 3 LH slays)?

B.

Please note that nothing about the function of Slay has changed.
If the wording has changed, it is simply stating the same intent in a different way.

I noticed a few traits missing from some of the skills.  Were any of the following intentional?

1) The description of Devastating Blow states that the attack is piercing, but it lacks the Piercing trait.
2) Slay lacks the Lethal trait.
3) Slam doesn't have Condition (Knocked Prone)
4) Both Master Proficiency and Defensive Fighting seems to fit the description of the Proficiency trait.
5) Perfect Strike can be used with defensive or offensive skills, but it lacks the Defense trait.

Also, a trait related question: Why is Bypass Armor a Social skill.  If that's not a mistake, can defenses that stop other social skills (I'm specifically thinking of Willpower) prevent a Bypass Armor?

A bunch of those will be fixed in the updated edition with more cleaned up descriptions. What I will say though is that Devastating strike is not piercing, but an original incarnation was. The new description will reflect that when its done.

Also that being said don't stop posting oddities like that. It'll help us clean things up as we make the more complete version.

A couple random questions:

1a) Does Rend Limb actually have a mechanical pain effect involved, or is it just a roleplay effect?  If there is a mechanic involved, can Ignore Pain defend against that part of the skill?

1b) Same as above, except for Sever Limb.

2) Can I use Perfect Balance in response to Throw, avoiding the 10 foot movement and instead just falling prone?

3) Can Perfect Balance defend against Dust Devil?

1a+b) Roleplay effect.
2) As awkward as it sounds based off the current wording you would just be knocked prone. Though I might petition to have that changed as it seems kind of weird.
3) Yes but its a similar situation as with Throw.

This might have already been addressed, but this thread has gotten huge:

From "Perfect Strike:"

"The character must be within her weapon’s reach of the intended target to use this skill.  If coupled with a Parry or Deflect those defenses become Superior."

This wording is very confusing.  What does it mean?  Does it mean you could use Perfect Strike with Parry or Deflect in order to make said Parry or Deflect Superior?

If so, does that mean you could use Perfect Strike with other defenses?

It does exactly what the wording says - if you couple Perfect Strike with a Deflect (ie, calling "Perfect strike deflect") then it acts as a superior defense.  No, it does not work with other defenses, only the ones listed.

Sean

Okay, Sean.  Let's get into what "exactly" the wording says: it says that Master Warriors can couple Perfect Strike with "any other skill they wish to couple with it."  This would suggest that a MW could pair Perfect Strike with Gypsy Hex, Spirit of the Dragon, Courage, a Healing Spell, or whatever - especially when the skill description goes on to say how it works with Parry and Deflect.  This contradicts what you just explained: that the only defenses which can be used are Parry and Deflect.

So you see, Sean, while I was able to reason out that your explaination of the skill was the most LIKELY meaning of the wording, this wording is NOT exact, nor does it convey the proper meaning.

Here's something better, with the changes in bold for your convenience: "The Master Warrior states 'Perfect Strike' followed by any other physical attack skill they wish to couple with it and the target must defend or succumb to the attack.  The character must be within her weapon’s reach of the intended target to use this skill.  Perfect Strike may also be coupled with a Parry or Deflect (but no other defense skills), and if used in this way those defenses become Superior.  You may not Follow Through on a Perfect Strike."

This is assuming that Perfect Strike is only meant to be coupled with physical attacks.  I'm only guessing that it is - the wording is not very exact on that, either.

--Andy--

Whoa...

Not trying to complicate things here, more trying to simplify them but... the entire quote of the skill would clear this all up.

This ability allows the Master Warrior to strike their opponent with perfect accuracy. The Master Warrior states "Perfect Strike" followed by any other skill they wish to couple with it and the target must defend or succumb to the attack.  The character must be within her weapon’s reach of the intended target to use this skill.  If coupled with a Parry or Deflect those defenses become Superior.  You may not Follow Through on a Perfect Strike.

The wording cannot suggest using Perfect Strike with a Buff.
The wording says "...and the target must defend or succumb to the attack." that last part denotes that an attack must be used with this ability.
The last section involving Parry or Deflect is also clear as to the only exception to the previous line of "...and the target must defend or succumb to the attack."  The reason the text (but no other defense skills) is not listed is because we have a long standing rule that is often quoted and understood that if the skill does not say you can, then you cannot.

I can understand a little confusion but I don't think that any sort of heated motions are required here, remember it's just a game and that emotions and context don't translate well over the internet.

Cheers,

I've bolded the exact parts of the skill that make it unable to do any of the things you're suggesting:

Perfect Strike
Attack, Melee, Piercing
Tier: 4
Build: 5
Maximum: 3
Pre-Req.:  1 Tier 3 Finesse ability
Usage: Periodic
This ability allows the Master Warrior to strike their opponent with perfect accuracy. The Master Warrior states "Perfect Strike" followed by any other skill they wish to couple with it and the target must defend or succumb to the attack.  The character must be within her weapon’s reach of the intended target to use this skill.  If coupled with a Parry or Deflect those defenses become Superior.  You may not Follow Through on a Perfect Strike.

Hope that helps clear things up.

Sean

So with spell grounding gone, master warriors can only stop a spell if they have Immaculate Defense... kinda makes us alot weaker dont ya think, since any mage can just incinerate us or harvest your soul us into the ground...

So with spell grounding gone, master warriors can only stop a spell if they have Immaculate Defense... kinda makes us alot weaker dont ya think, since any mage can just incinerate us or harvest your soul us into the ground...

Or Defiant Cover.  But you're right, there's no denying that master warriors are now far more susceptible to magic.  The overall power level of the entire game is being brought down with the changes to these lists, master warrior was just the first one to be finished.  Trust me, the caster higher list is also being brought into line, and it should also be ready shortly.  Once everything is balanced out, the disparity won't be so large.

Skimmel

How will learning/teaching happen for the new skills, if your IG PC teacher follows the Power Path & you want to go the Finesse Path?

How do skills like dodge work in relation to the superior trait change or are they staying superior? Example: rend limb vs dodge...how do you rend what isn't there?

It's possible that the wording on some of these skills could use some cleaning up. As Sam said, I made the decision to rush this out to you guys so you can start getting ready. The rules marshals will clarify the intent as you ask questions and we will clean up descriptions as we feel are needed.

Spell grounding removal and every other changes were deliberate and thought out. This will become more apparent as more higher lists or hot fixes to them are released. Casters are next and might  be out before jan. Those changes are massive as well. Spell Casters in general, are glass cannons.

There will be a superior version of dodge on higher lists. Dodge remains non-superior. If you need help grasping your head around this from an RP standpoint, superior attacks are delivered too fast for you to dodge, so don't waste your dodge. You are not fast enough. If you have the superior version of dodge you are fast enough, use that skill

How will learning/teaching happen for the new skills, if your IG PC teacher follows the Power Path & you want to go the Finesse Path?

From a roleplay standpoint, a person following a different path wouldn't really be the appropriate teacher would they...

From a rules standpoint any master warrior teacher can teach the list, regardless of the tree they've chosen.  Obviously no teacher will be able to teach every skill any more, so how you choose to RP that and handle it IG is up to you.

Sean

Thanks James! Also are all higher list defenses going to be considered superior for now until everything is balanced out properly? For example mantis style was parry/throw is it now that but also superior?

Everything will be individually evaluated for balance, but that is the general plan, yes.

The thing I am wondering about is no "new" NPC teachers will come out if there is a player who can teach the skill.  Higher lists are NOT guaranteed.  If you pissed off your IG teacher, then you are out of luck.  If you have a player who IG RP'd a relationship with a specific teacher to learn the higher list recently... these changes alter that.

Example: Scott the Swashbuckler is a Master Warrior teacher.  His student is Clara the Chaos Warrior (she "convinced" him to be her teacher due to a drinking contest).  So he begins teaching her, as per the rules, they are waiting/rp-ing through the first stage.   With these changes, Scott chooses to go with the Finesse Path.  So he get all the Tiers for Finesse, & chooses Defense for the 2ndary, & Power for the 3rd.

Clara is a 2hder person, so she chooses Power as her prime choice.  Scott can help her learn 1 (or maybe 2) of the 1st Tier Power skills, but that's it.  Now she has to learn the other Tier Power skills from someone else.  Thing is, she doesn't know who can teach her & her character (a wild Chaos Warrior who drinks).  For her to go & try to learn from Chester the Cavalier (who is a Lawful Good, non-drinker, serious type) who knows the Power Path is kinda weird.

1.You said all lower list, save promos, will be non superior. Does this apply to things like Stoneskin, displacement, retribution etc that still have it listed as superior.

1a. Stoneskin is on both Valence and Earth, will there be a name change?

2 What about magical and divine sanctuaries, they are lower list skills that stop "everything" will they still stop higher list skills or did they just get significantly weaker?

1. Yes.  The Rulebook has not been updated yet to this change.  Give it time!  These changes come out the day after the rulebook went up.  What is currently posted here is the most accurate of information.

1a. The Earth spell name will remain the same.  No, the new names are not posted yet.

2. Barriers do not stop effects, more that they do not allow a person close enough to use an ability.  Barriers still work the same.

Everyone is asking such good questions to help iron it out that I feel like I'm nitpicking and complaining but that's not the case, just confused.  Under the path of power, to get slay you need one tier 3 skill.  However, there is only one tier 3 skill available and that is Devastating Strike.  While this is an awesome skill in concept it is ineffective without the right type of weapon.  That leaves someone like myself, carrying two 1HE or someone fighting with shield with a skill they can't use or at least can't easily utilize just to cover a pre-req.

So I guess my question is, will there be an alternative tier 3, or another way to satisfy the pre-req.

Also, will we be able to re-spend the build or will the build be refunded and we will have to learn everything IG.  (This may have been covered but I just soaked up so much new information I don't remember.)

Thanks.

Dave Ludewig
IG - Dagnarus Artex Firehilt